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Show HN: A REST API for Calculating VAT in the EU

vatmossapi.com

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Re: Show HN: A REST API for Calculating VAT in the EU

#31

Post by jacquesm »

Silhouette wrote: post #25
jacquesm wrote: post #12

This does not make the distinction between consumers and corporate (VAT registered) customers nor does it make a distinction between services and goods (and various classes of goods, to make things even more complicated). Which makes me suspect this is a very broken implementation and you should not rely on it for your business needs.

Given that it's specifically for VAT MOSS, presumably it's specifically intended for B2C sales of digital products/services where the MOSS-related place of supply rules apply?

Yes, but the customer isn't always a consumer, so in that case you get a lot of extra burden: pull in the VAT number of the consumer, verify it and if it is correct make the sale without VAT, otherwise make the sale with VAT.

If you don't do that properly you're either leaving money on the table or you could be later charged with the difference. Note that under VATMOSS any of the tax adminstrators in the EU has the right to audit you so it really pays off to do this well.

And it's the 'place of consumption' rather than the 'place of supply'.

Re: Show HN: A REST API for Calculating VAT in the EU

#32

Post by vog »

mherrmann wrote: post #27
vog wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, this was a typo. I meant business information, not bookkeeping information. > Unless you count a pair of countries and a post code It is more than that. You also have the source IP address, which you can map not only to countries, but to relatively small regions and sometimes to individual companies. If this service was meant to be "datensparsam", it would provide an updated table or dataset, and not require a…

Oh come on, how is that sensitive. Use a proxy if you're really worried about this.

Not really worried, more curious how the collected datasets will be analyzed.

Re: Show HN: A REST API for Calculating VAT in the EU

#33

Post by mherrmann »

jacquesm wrote: post #31
Silhouette wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that it's specifically for VAT MOSS, presumably it's specifically intended for B2C sales of digital products/services where the MOSS-related place of supply rules apply?

Yes, but the customer isn't always a consumer, so in that case you get a lot of extra burden: pull in the VAT number of the consumer, verify it and if it is correct make the sale without VAT, otherwise make the sale with VAT. If you don't do that properly you're either leaving money on the table or you could be later charged with the difference. Note that under VATMOSS any of the tax adminstrators in the EU has the r…

You're correct. That's all necessary. But there are separate steps / APIs for that (eg VAT id validation).

Re: Show HN: A REST API for Calculating VAT in the EU

#34

Post by mherrmann »

vog wrote: post #32
mherrmann wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on, how is that sensitive. Use a proxy if you're really worried about this.

Not really worried, more curious how the collected datasets will be analyzed.

Nothing, honestly. That data on its own has no value to me.

Re: Show HN: A REST API for Calculating VAT in the EU

#35

Post by Silhouette »

mherrmann wrote: post #24
Silhouette wrote: post #15

The EU administration itself or the national tax authorities in the EU should have provided an official service like this to go with the VAT changes for digital sales from day one. I appreciate someone else stepping up and doing it, though I'd want to see more information about the source(s) they were using for the data and how frequently they were checked before I'd hook a real business up to a third party service l…

The source is mentioned at the bottom of the page. Please read the full page before criticising.

I did read the full page. You linked to https://github.com/mpociot/vat-calculator, which appears to be another unofficial third-party source.

I mean no disrespect, but you're asking anyone relying on your API to trust you with their business. If you or anyone you rely on makes a mistake then your user will probably be breaking the law and on the hook for any missing tax. Moreover, by the nature of this system, the damage could be done in real time before any human reviews and approves any changes to what the customer's business is charging.

I don't think it's unreasonable to want more information than you (or your immediate source) currently provide before giving that level of trust in this situation.

Re: Show HN: A REST API for Calculating VAT in the EU

#36

Post by jacquesm »

kk_cz wrote: post #11

How about different rates for different goods / services? This looks like a gross oversimplification. Doing VAT correctly is quite hard - there is a reason why there are dedicated VAT specialists working in larger consulting firms.

Goods are - for now - still under different rules but there is definitely talk of expanding the MOSS concept to goods as well. Even so mixed invoices are a fact and any line items passed through this system should be accompanied by the relevant bits so the system can decide which rate to apply. As it is it only works in that one case (digital goods/services to consumers).

Re: Show HN: A REST API for Calculating VAT in the EU

#37

Post by jacquesm »

mherrmann wrote: post #34
vog wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really worried, more curious how the collected datasets will be analyzed.

Nothing, honestly. That data on its own has no value to me.

Then you should say so on the page or in a separate privacy statement. Transparency about such details is very important in this space.

Re: Show HN: A REST API for Calculating VAT in the EU

#38

Post by Silhouette »

jacquesm wrote: post #17
Silhouette wrote: post #15

The EU administration itself or the national tax authorities in the EU should have provided an official service like this to go with the VAT changes for digital sales from day one. I appreciate someone else stepping up and doing it, though I'd want to see more information about the source(s) they were using for the data and how frequently they were checked before I'd hook a real business up to a third party service l…

They did, it's called the VATMOSS portal: https://www.ros.ie/vatmoss-web/vatmoss.html The problem is that it is a pain to use and too labor intensive to be practical.

I'm painfully aware of the EU VAT MOSS system and how it "works"[1], but as far as I can see, that doesn't explain the source for the near-real-time tax rate data being offered here.

[1] Obviously it doesn't really work very well at all, and multiple national tax authorities have already been caught sending unjustified threats to many businesses for money they never owed, among other screw-ups.

Re: Show HN: A REST API for Calculating VAT in the EU

#39

Post by jacquesm »

Silhouette wrote: post #29
talideon wrote: post #16

That won't work in Ireland. While 23% is the headline rate, it's not the only rate: https://www.taxworld.ie/vat/summary/vat-rates/

There are variable rates almost everywhere, but this API is specifically about digital sales (where the MOSS system applies) so it will typically be that headline rate that you need anyway. Of course, there's no guarantee that that will always be the case, and to know for sure you need to understand the tax systems of 28 different EU member states. This is (one of many reasons) why the new EU VAT rules have been so c…

Especially for small companies. The cost of compliance can easily outweigh the turnover in countries with few customers and opens you up to being audited on demand by the tax authorities in any country you have customers in.

Re: Show HN: A REST API for Calculating VAT in the EU

#40

Post by mherrmann »

jacquesm wrote: post #37
mherrmann wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing, honestly. That data on its own has no value to me.

Then you should say so on the page or in a separate privacy statement. Transparency about such details is very important in this space.

I'll add it, thanks. This was just a weekend project.
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