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The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

nytimes.com

41–50 of 410 posts

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#41
post #21

I've been a programmer for a bit over ten years. I've worked at scrappy little startups, midsized companies, now for a tech giant for a few years. The engineers I work with at the tech giant are consistently better engineers than my other coworkers have been, and I credit the very structured interview process. We're trained to ask specific questions, look for specific types of answers, and each interviewer is evaluat…

Thanks...could you please cite specific examples?

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#42
How do you know that the person you'll be marrying won't cheat on you and won't leave you in hard times? If you apply the methods we use today for interviews you'll end up with a 50/50 chance at best, a coin toss.

Yet why do some marriages last forever (till death do us apart) while others fail miserably or crumble even after 20 years?

The search for the global optimum cannot be performed by asking a set of questions. I argue that it cannot be done consciously. It's gut/instinct thing. If you have a mechanical approach, anyone can game the system and get a job because humans can be like chameleons to present themselves as the right candidate, and they can study for the interview. Only way IMO is to have that 3rd eye or whatever you call it... instinct, gut feeling, etc

The problem with this conclusion is that instinct and sexism/racism are often conflated.

No good answer.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#43
The problem is GPA itself isn't necessary a valid data point. It's less fallible than "gut instinct", as the author here seems eager to claim, but personality type can be more important than ability to memorize facts.

I'd rather hire a programmer who knew less and could get along with others than a master dev who's a total a-hole.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#44
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having done interviews at a few of time, I'd say that's mostly false, at least for the last 2-3 years. As far as I can tell, there's always a pre-defined pool of questions. Some of them are pretty 'open ended', but still targeted towards getting a good impression of a certain area of knowledge. That being said, I had an interview with Google at some point in the past where one of the interviewers almost seemed appall…

Recently I failed an interview at Facebook because I chose to serialize a binary tree into a list of N items, rather than a list of N items and O(N) sentinels. Most of the interview was spent convincing the interviewer that this could possibly be correct.

was it a binary tree or a binary search tree? a BST can be uniquely identified by one of pre/post-order traversal, whereas a binary tree requires an in-order traversal and one other. or placing sentinels that specify a state machine [PUSH_LEFT, PUSH_RIGHT, POP] that specify how to move down and up the tree structure.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#45
Structured interviews are better than unstructured ones, but in my experience they are really a Trojan horse for the idea that interviews in all forms are largely worthless (as predictors for good hiring).

Once you start collecting data on your hiring pipeline work sample hiring becomes so much obviously better that it makes little sense to spend the time to do the hard work of making a good structured interview process.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#46
post #10

Articles like this - and the comments that follow - always overlook the primary value of job interviews, which to me is answering the question: "Do I want to work for this company?"

And articles like this are almost universally written from the perspective of someone being interviewed, rather than the one interviewing.

The article that I just read following the submitted link was from the perspective of neither, but of someone looking at the hiring process as an observer. The anecdotes are anecdotes and they don't matter except to lighten up a newspaper article for the masses, so we can ignore them - I'm talking about what was actually studied.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This accusation is almost always from people who haven't studied that particular pet topic. In my experience, the pet topics you list - parallelism, dynamic programming, networking, etc. - are needed quite frequently for those jobs at AmaGooFaceSoft. In other words, those candidates would be poor fits for those jobs, which is exactly what an interview is trying to test. I think the Google hiring process is fucked up…

Are those topics really needed for (what you're implying) is the majority of jobs at those companies? I'm not sure if there's any way to really test this.

Yes. This is the reality of distributed computing: most of the problems you want to solve do not have off-the-shelf libraries. Rather, you need to know an algorithm, and various algorithmic-design techniques, well enough that you can decompose it into steps and then recompose steps so that they can be partitioned among many different computers, with appropriate failure modes if machines or network connections go down. That requires intimate knowledge of both the algorithm and of the types of problems you run into in a distributed setting.

MapReduce, Pregel, Bigtable, Flume, etc. are building blocks: they solve some of the distribution problems, but you still need to understand how the algorithms that run on top of them work, on a step-by-step level, to implement on top of them.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this work in practice? If there are consistently used questions and specific criteria for assessing responses, can a candidate just learn the likely questions and what constitutes the "right" answer?

Google tries to keep interview questions confidential - that's why candidates sign an NDA - and periodically rotates out questions that have appeared in public. Many engineers are also continually trying to think up new questions as well, usually based on their work. For most questions, there's no "right" answer, but there are a set of points that the interviewer wants to see you touch on. For example, they might fir…

What about when you know what the concept of big O is, know why it's often touted as important, and disagree that it's as important as it's touted?

My opinion is that big-O often ends up being used as a premature optimization effort hindering "just get the right answer first". Maybe that brute force method will work in a reasonable clock-time cost, despite having egregious algorithmic cost. You won't know if you're busy overengineering and optimizing before you even have a working solution.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#49
post #35
post #21

I've been a programmer for a bit over ten years. I've worked at scrappy little startups, midsized companies, now for a tech giant for a few years. The engineers I work with at the tech giant are consistently better engineers than my other coworkers have been, and I credit the very structured interview process. We're trained to ask specific questions, look for specific types of answers, and each interviewer is evaluat…

Which of the companies paid the best/has the best benefits? If it's the tech giant, it's very possible they attract better candidates because they offer more.

In my experience, the big Corps don't tend to offer anywhere near as much compensation but better days off etc etc.

The best sofware guys I've ever seen work at those big corps. The big corps are the ones that have the resources to work on the REALLY hard problems and not writing the same CRUD app over and over again. Those same companies also provide tons of educational benefits so that you become an expert in your field.

Things like fighter jet software are fantastically complex. You hear about the dumb mistakes that are made (International Date Line Issues), but you never hear about the thousands of hours of testing every change to code goes through and the insane calculations that are made every second in even standard level flight.

I have no idea why there is such a backlash against interviews. What's so hard about studying for a job you want? Even if you don't USE knowledge, you should at least be able to rederive things using your base knowledge. Thoe interviews I've seen at aero companies are damn hard. Tons of grilling on if you actually understand mechanics and fliud dynamics.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#50
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having done interviews at a few of time, I'd say that's mostly false, at least for the last 2-3 years. As far as I can tell, there's always a pre-defined pool of questions. Some of them are pretty 'open ended', but still targeted towards getting a good impression of a certain area of knowledge. That being said, I had an interview with Google at some point in the past where one of the interviewers almost seemed appall…

Recently I failed an interview at Facebook because I chose to serialize a binary tree into a list of N items, rather than a list of N items and O(N) sentinels. Most of the interview was spent convincing the interviewer that this could possibly be correct.

i recently failed a programming test after acing all tests except one where i needed a text diff and pulled in a library instead of writing my own in less then ten minutes. they said i need to get better at algos. which is fair. but i dont know anyone that can program a decent working text diff in less then ten minutes.
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