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How do you make programmers work 60-80 hours per week?

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Re: How do you make programmers work 60-80 hours per week?

#101

Post by mkagenius »

grecy wrote: post #74

Answer: Be in America where employees are close to slaves, and people are scared of losing their job, so you can force them to do these kinds of atrocious things. My brother lived and worked in North America for 7 years before returning to Australia. He'd been in Australia for a few months when I asked what the biggest change was. He didn't say no snow, he didn't say driving on the wrong side of the road, food or att…

In India, most of the students get a bachelors degree without any loan. No one in India becomes homeless in a week if he loses his job. This loan and debt thing is really messed up in the US.

Re: How do you make programmers work 60-80 hours per week?

#102

Post by oskarth »

tostitos1979 wrote: post #99
mack73 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody outside of NA are scared of loosing their jobs, is what you believe, because of how enslaved to the system Americans are? Households in Sweden take on heavy debt. If we loose our jobs here some of us fall back for a while on a (voluntary) system which from an angle looks like a basic income but that cover only a fraction of that household's mortage, enslaving us to a system in the same way Americans may seem e…

What is the nature of the debt? Housing? As an aside, I once saw a homeless man in a Scandinavian country. Someone actually stopped their car to check on them. As a tourist from NA, my mind was blown. Was impressed by that but not having to pay 10 bucks for a cup of tea :p

I grew up in Stockholm, Sweden and used to live there until a few years ago. There are plenty of homeless people in Stockholm nowadays. There's one outside almost every grocery store in the city center. For comparison, I'm currently living in Taipei, and I can count the number of homeless people I have seen in the last few months on one hand. They probably exists but they are definitely not visibly present.

As to the nature of debt, it is almost entirely in housing. It is currently a big debate about whatever there should be laws on private cash investment and mortgage repayment rates.

Homelessness example from Sweden's public radio (2014): http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&art...

OECD private debt: https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm

EDIT: Almost all the homeless people you see in Stockholm are Romani people. They are one of the five officially recognized national minorities in Sweden, along with Jews, Sami, Sweden Finns and Tornedalers (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...)

Re: How do you make programmers work 60-80 hours per week?

#103

Post by tostitos1979 »

EliRivers wrote: post #65
solipsism wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. Infrequent "crunch time" is the norm in the video game industry, with regular hours outside of crunch time (if you're lucky enough to be employed at that time). Standard expectations of 12 hour days is most certainly not the norm.

I don't want to misread "if you're lucky enough to be employed at that time"; are you saying that the games industry now hires labour for crunch time and then fires everyone afterwards? The games industry has had a poor reputation for a long time but I don't want to unfairly interpret people if things are better these days.

That's how I read it. Clarify OP?

Re: How do you make programmers work 60-80 hours per week?

#104

Post by Rainymood »

grecy wrote: post #74

Answer: Be in America where employees are close to slaves, and people are scared of losing their job, so you can force them to do these kinds of atrocious things. My brother lived and worked in North America for 7 years before returning to Australia. He'd been in Australia for a few months when I asked what the biggest change was. He didn't say no snow, he didn't say driving on the wrong side of the road, food or att…

I think (another) root cause of the problem is the education system in America. People go to great lengths (i.e. playing "slave" in High School) to get into great colleges which are often privately funded. This means that high performers go to good colleges and some of them score big and give back to their alma mater which reinforces the school with money so they can hire better people etc etc. Disclaimer: European and total outsider so please correct me if my views are wrong I am very interested in how Americans see this system. Do you think it's unfair?

Re: How do you make programmers work 60-80 hours per week?

#105

Post by notalaser »

grecy wrote: post #74

Answer: Be in America where employees are close to slaves, and people are scared of losing their job, so you can force them to do these kinds of atrocious things. My brother lived and worked in North America for 7 years before returning to Australia. He'd been in Australia for a few months when I asked what the biggest change was. He didn't say no snow, he didn't say driving on the wrong side of the road, food or att…

Pretty much this. A few years ago, I used to work for a small-ish American company that had offices in my corner of the world in Europe. They tried to pull this sort of crap in our office -- everyone except the guy in charge of the local office (who was a VP of something something -- his company had been bought some time before) quit within months.

The occasional week-long sprint before a release is one thing. I think better management/planning would avoid them, but they're normal in such a competitive industry, I guess. So I've worked 80-hour weeks at times, no complaint here. In fact, I think they're healthy now and then, I like the buzz that I get at 3 AM, it's good concentration exercise...

Constant work at this pace though, no, can't do. First, that's how bad software gets written. You literally get worse at your business for doing it. Second, those additional hours per day aren't just family time hours. They're also learning-new-things hours, reading hours, keeping myself informed hours, debating stuff with friends hours and so on. Not having them further decreases my chances of getting better employment somewhere else (or even getting a better position where I work right now) and slowly turns me into a social retard living in a bubble made out only of headlines. That can't be good for me.

Oh, and without additional pay, it's illegal pretty much everywhere around here.

It's probably like getting drunk -- getting shitfaced once a year with your old highschool friends to celebrate the anniversary of when you all got arrested for egging the principal's house is kind of a healthy social activity. Chugging a bottle of Jameson every day because that's how we do things around here is called being an alcoholic and it's really bad for your insides.

I've had colleagues who glorified this sort of work. It does create some amount of peer pressure (unsurprisingly, the managers are quick to praise this sort of stuff), but after the ripe age of 17 I've learned to deal with that.

Re: How do you make programmers work 60-80 hours per week?

#106

Post by daliwali »

I both agree and disagree with the premise that programming is a creative process. Donald Knuth calls programming “an aesthetic experience much like composing poetry or painting.” The most creative work can be done when it's not clear if something will work or not, that is it might fail, and it requires the ambition of a mad scientist to succeed. The individual programmer must have autonomy and not be micro-managed or ruled by a committee, otherwise they will resort to being creative in ways that are petty and insignificant, like naming conventions, syntax formatting, arbitrary rules, etc.

99% of programming jobs are not creative jobs. Most problems aren't that unique, and most programmers work within well-established boundaries and frameworks. Step out of line or take unconventional risks, and you may find yourself unemployed. This is not necessary bad, it brings stability, but also stagnation (it is why enterprise IT culture is so soul-draining, from first-hand experience). Not only enterprise but many startups operate this way. There is overwhelming cognitive bias towards doing what other people are doing, which will only lead to the same results.

Re: How do you make programmers work 60-80 hours per week?

#107

Post by apexalpha »

mack73 wrote: post #82
grecy wrote: post #74

Answer: Be in America where employees are close to slaves, and people are scared of losing their job, so you can force them to do these kinds of atrocious things. My brother lived and worked in North America for 7 years before returning to Australia. He'd been in Australia for a few months when I asked what the biggest change was. He didn't say no snow, he didn't say driving on the wrong side of the road, food or att…

Nobody outside of NA are scared of loosing their jobs, is what you believe, because of how enslaved to the system Americans are? Households in Sweden take on heavy debt. If we loose our jobs here some of us fall back for a while on a (voluntary) system which from an angle looks like a basic income but that cover only a fraction of that household's mortage, enslaving us to a system in the same way Americans may seem e…

Dutch here. We also have huge debt, on average. But if we lose our job and don't find one within 1 year (of unemployment benefits) and welfare after that isn't enoughh you can still sell your house. You can't really sell your degree to make up for the debt.

That being said, someone in the US also easily earns double salary compared to Europe and has lower taxes.

Re: How do you make programmers work 60-80 hours per week?

#108

Post by jkgjgkjh »

oskarth wrote: post #102
tostitos1979 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the nature of the debt? Housing? As an aside, I once saw a homeless man in a Scandinavian country. Someone actually stopped their car to check on them. As a tourist from NA, my mind was blown. Was impressed by that but not having to pay 10 bucks for a cup of tea :p

I grew up in Stockholm, Sweden and used to live there until a few years ago. There are plenty of homeless people in Stockholm nowadays. There's one outside almost every grocery store in the city center. For comparison, I'm currently living in Taipei, and I can count the number of homeless people I have seen in the last few months on one hand. They probably exists but they are definitely not visibly present. As to the…

Are the homeless in Stockholm Swedish or Roma?

EDIT

> EDIT: Almost all the homeless people you see in Stockholm are Romani people. They are one of the five officially recognized national minorities in Sweden, along with Jews, Sami, Sweden Finns and Tornedalers ...

Please refer to my post below replying to this same assertion from another poster.

Re: How do you make programmers work 60-80 hours per week?

#109

Post by grecy »

mack73 wrote: post #82
grecy wrote: post #74

Answer: Be in America where employees are close to slaves, and people are scared of losing their job, so you can force them to do these kinds of atrocious things. My brother lived and worked in North America for 7 years before returning to Australia. He'd been in Australia for a few months when I asked what the biggest change was. He didn't say no snow, he didn't say driving on the wrong side of the road, food or att…

Nobody outside of NA are scared of loosing their jobs, is what you believe, because of how enslaved to the system Americans are? Households in Sweden take on heavy debt. If we loose our jobs here some of us fall back for a while on a (voluntary) system which from an angle looks like a basic income but that cover only a fraction of that household's mortage, enslaving us to a system in the same way Americans may seem e…

> Nobody outside of NA are scared of loosing their jobs, is what you believe, because of how enslaved to the system Americans are?

I didn't say nobody, and I didn't say everywhere outside America. Don't exaggerate what I said.

I used an example that Australia Vs. America is a vast difference.

In my experience (and that of my brother), Americans not having maternity leave, sick leave, decent holidays etc. and having student debt and health care tied to their work means they are treated much more like slaves than in other high-performing OECD countries.

I'm curious about Sweden now.

- When one does lose their job in Sweden, what happens when you break your leg next week? or get cancer?

- How much student debt to those in Sweden incur for a 4 years bachelor degree?

- How many weeks of leave does Sweden mandate by law from full-time work?

- How about maternity leave and sick leave?

Re: How do you make programmers work 60-80 hours per week?

#110

Post by barry-cotter »

mkagenius wrote: post #101
grecy wrote: post #74

Answer: Be in America where employees are close to slaves, and people are scared of losing their job, so you can force them to do these kinds of atrocious things. My brother lived and worked in North America for 7 years before returning to Australia. He'd been in Australia for a few months when I asked what the biggest change was. He didn't say no snow, he didn't say driving on the wrong side of the road, food or att…

In India, most of the students get a bachelors degree without any loan. No one in India becomes homeless in a week if he loses his job. This loan and debt thing is really messed up in the US.

In India slightly over a quarter of the population are illiterate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_India

The World Bank, in 2011 based on 2005's PPPs International Comparison Program, estimated 23.6% of Indian population, or about 276 million people, lived below $1.25 per day on purchasing power parity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India

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