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Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

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Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#71

Post by user5994461 »

simonsarris wrote: post #31

What they're counting matters. It seems if Google has the goal of hiring more females than industry average, then the stats are stacked against them when you look at their worker pay distribution, even if Google isn't doing anything wrong. Suppose the population is distributed in their experience and productivity, and that you can measure these to some extent. Suppose your field has way more males than females. This…

> If you are fairly paying both genders, wouldn't you necessarily have to take more unproductive and inexperienced female engineers to reach your goal? And if you're fairly paying based on those criteria, won't the female population be paid less as you try to take on a more-than-average number of them?

If you are fairly paying both genders, it's fair to assume that women would be paid less statistically.

They usually retire from work mid-career for pregnancy and possibly for a much longer time to raise the child (when it's not the man doing it, and when the couple don't have a nursery/grandparent, etc...).

Retiring from work at the peak time for career growth is a disastrous move on one's income. (Be it a man or a woman).

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#72

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

davidf18 wrote: post #25

Assuming labor markets are liquid, if the pay gap is true it means either: 1. Women really want to work for Google and take less pay than working at other employers or 2. Women at almost all employers are receiving less money. There were times not too long ago when there were Jewish quotas. Nobelist Physicist Richard Feynman was denied entry into Columbia and he went to MIT instead. Nobelist Medicine & Physiology Aut…

> Those universities/firms that didn't have Jewish quotas and discrimination got a good boost in performance over those who had quotas and discrimination.

Counterpoint: a recent study suggested that corporate boards with gender quotas worked better, because it meant they didn't overlook competent female executives in favour of mediocre male ones.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#73

Post by m52go »

snarf21 wrote: post #30
m52go wrote: post #3

I can't read the whole article, but does it (or DOL documents) include details like amount of experience and job function? I've heard that much (not all) of the aggregate gap (i.e., on the national level) goes away after controlling for those variables. Curious if that applies here, and if so, to what degree. Edit: consider recent headlines promoting outrage at Marissa Mayer's successor earning double her salary beca…

I can't find the source but I read something recently that said that after controlling for position and experience the pay gap is around 7%. Off the cuff, I find that to match my intuition. If you could hire women engineers for 80% of the equivalent man, then all companies would wan't to hire every other companies women at 90% of equivalent because they would still be getting a deal and the women would get a big pay…

> If you could hire women engineers for 80% of the equivalent man, then all companies would wan't to hire every other companies women at 90% of equivalent because they would still be getting a deal and the women would get a big pay bump. This is not happening.

Of course it's not happening, because according to your own response, people of both genders who have less experience get paid less.

People get paid in accordance with their experience. There is no arbitrage opportunity.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#74

Post by tyingq »

denzil_correa wrote: post #56
tyingq wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they have no numbers, how did they reach the conclusion they state above?

DoL has NOT reached any conclusion. DoL has a suspicion based on 2015 snapshot of salaries. They want to understand why there's a disparity. It may or may not be due to a gender wage gap but for that conclusion to be reached you need to have access to data they have requested from Google.

Right, but the DOL is absolutely stating things that sound like conclusions, not suspicions:

"We found systemic compensation disparities against women pretty much across the entire workforce"

That statement obviously depends on numbers they already have, and are not sharing.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#75

Post by antoncohen »

The DoL claims "discrimination against women in Google is quite extreme, even in this industry", while Google claims "every year, we do a comprehensive and robust analysis of pay across genders and we have found no gender pay gap".

DoL is probably lacking data, and has a somewhat simplistic methodology (i.e., they see woman are paid less, but they don't know why). I highly doubt Google is intentionally discriminating against woman, I actually think they are probably trying very hard to have equal employment practices. But they still might be discriminating without knowing it.

Here is what could e happening: The DoL says "you pay women less, even when they have the same experience". Google says "we pay for performance, not experience, when you take performance into account there is no pay gap".

What Google might be missing is that there are unconscious biases causing performance reviews of woman to be more negative. I think that is highly likely. My understanding is that Google is highly reliant of performance reviews and performance pay, so under those conditions the DoL might be correct in saying discrimination is "quite extreme, even in this industry".

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#76

Post by Slaul »

snarf21 wrote: post #30
m52go wrote: post #3

I can't read the whole article, but does it (or DOL documents) include details like amount of experience and job function? I've heard that much (not all) of the aggregate gap (i.e., on the national level) goes away after controlling for those variables. Curious if that applies here, and if so, to what degree. Edit: consider recent headlines promoting outrage at Marissa Mayer's successor earning double her salary beca…

I can't find the source but I read something recently that said that after controlling for position and experience the pay gap is around 7%. Off the cuff, I find that to match my intuition. If you could hire women engineers for 80% of the equivalent man, then all companies would wan't to hire every other companies women at 90% of equivalent because they would still be getting a deal and the women would get a big pay…

I make about 10% less than my co-worker. We were hired for the exact same position with the same amount of experience (hired out of school). I just did not negotiate as well as he did.

I think trying to fully equalize pay (outside any obvious pay gap like women making 80% compared to men) across the board will remove the ability to negotiate.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#77

Post by oval-atom »

simonsarris wrote: post #31

What they're counting matters. It seems if Google has the goal of hiring more females than industry average, then the stats are stacked against them when you look at their worker pay distribution, even if Google isn't doing anything wrong. Suppose the population is distributed in their experience and productivity, and that you can measure these to some extent. Suppose your field has way more males than females. This…

Considering that there are probably hundreds of companies listed as Federal Contractors, and among them, the major Defense Contractors with thousands of employees. I would find it difficult to believe that Google has any grounds that would make them an exception to complying with the Federal requirement of submitting Compensation Data. From experience I can assure that Defense Contractors would have exploited any loophole or angle to relieve them of fulfilling this Federal requirement. Of note here is that Google was asked to submit this data back in September of 2015 and have been given numerous opportunities to meet their obligation. “Diversity and equal pay” of the workforce has been a very visible topic as of late, so you would think that Google would take a position of being in the forefront, and setting an example especially in the tech industry. It hasn’t been too long ago, Microsoft was being chastised for its apparent lack of diversity and equal pay. Google was not forced to be a Federal Contractor; they accepted that position and therefore accepted the responsibility of meeting the Federal requirement from the beginning. If Google had a problem then, they should have not accepted the responsibility of being a Federal Contractor. Maybe Google has taken the position that they are “Too Big to Comply” or they do have something to hide. But the old adage applies, “They knew what they were getting into in the first place”, and they undoubtedly accepted compensation.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#78

Post by dleslie »

user5994461 wrote: post #71
simonsarris wrote: post #31

What they're counting matters. It seems if Google has the goal of hiring more females than industry average, then the stats are stacked against them when you look at their worker pay distribution, even if Google isn't doing anything wrong. Suppose the population is distributed in their experience and productivity, and that you can measure these to some extent. Suppose your field has way more males than females. This…

> If you are fairly paying both genders, wouldn't you necessarily have to take more unproductive and inexperienced female engineers to reach your goal? And if you're fairly paying based on those criteria, won't the female population be paid less as you try to take on a more-than-average number of them? If you are fairly paying both genders, it's fair to assume that women would be paid less statistically. They usually…

Clearly more men need to take time off work to help raise their children.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#79

Post by matt_wulfeck »

denzil_correa wrote: post #60
jimmywanger wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder why Google is being so evasive about it. The article says that Google thinks the DOL is going on a fishing expedition. They turned over records, but like most private companies, don't like turning over records for no reason, especially about highly confidential information such as compensation packages.

> The article says that Google thinks the DOL is going on a fishing expedition. That's because the system is designed in such a way. The DoL can't make a case without access to meaningful data. So, if the system is designed to make access difficult this is what we end up with. > They turned over records They did not turn over records - that's what the entire lawsuit is about as mentioned in the court documents.

Clearly they've turned over at least some records before. They're making their case with 2015 data.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#80

Post by dleslie »

tyingq wrote: post #54
denzil_correa wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government can't give out numbers when Google is denying them access to the records. I've written the details in another comment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14067113

If they have no numbers, how did they reach the conclusion they state above?

Google employees pay taxes.
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