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New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

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Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#441

Post by georgeecollins »

I have gotten out of discussing past salary by saying that I believe salary history perpetuates wage discrimination. I am a white man, so I think this only makes me seem idealistic rather than disgruntled. But I do honestly believe this to be true.

Smart people who negotiate your salary do not want to get anywhere near a conversation that has the phrase "wage discrimination" in it for any reason, even hypothetical. They do not want to argue about what is or isn't wage discrimination, even if they disagree. So it can end the discussion with both parties feeling they are being high minded by avoiding the topic.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#442

Post by matwood »

pm90 wrote: post #133
pmoriarty wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never consider interviewing and negotiations a waste of time. It's very valuable practice, no matter what the outcome. Practice is how I get better at both. The more interviews I go on and the more times I negotiate salary, the better I get. Also, even if a company can't hire me at the moment due to real budget constraints, they might be able to do so in the future, or perhaps one of the people I interviewed and im…

> I never consider interviewing and negotiations a waste of time. It's very valuable practice, no matter what the outcome. Practice is how I get better at both. The more interviews I go on and the more times I negotiate salary, the better I get. This. I get the impression that most software devs don't make an effort to learn this incredibly valuable skill. It doesn't even have to be haggling, per se. Just asking for…

> Just asking for a higher salary is often going to increase it by thousands of dollars.

General life rule that so many people seem to have zero clue about - you only get what you ask for. Instead, so many people turn into passive aggressive assholes or sit in silence and stew. If you want more money, ask for it (in a polite professional way obviously). If the company says no, you now have a clear next step.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#443

Post by toephu2 »

tehlike wrote: post #138
ingenuous2 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My preferred technique is to mentally baseline my current total comp, then shoot for that as my base at my next position. You really shouldn't compare salaries, since benefits can vary so much. So if I'm making $100k in base now, but have a good bonus structure, a good vacation package, health, retirement, etc., could make that total comp closer to $150. So that's what I say is my current compensation -- most people…

in tech companies, bonus + equity is usually multiples of the base salary.

Please name 5.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#444

Post by jgalt212 »

pmoriarty wrote: post #43

I never answer questions about my past or expected salary, not to employers and not to recruiters. Most employers don't ask, and the few that have (perhaps by having a part of an employment form ask for previous salary) have never made my leaving that information out an issue. Most recruiters, if they even ask, respect my decision not to talk about it, but I've been pressed hard on this by a handful of recruiters, an…

> I never answer questions about my past or expected salary, not to employers and not to recruiters.

That's great for you, but a prospective employer refused to put an official offer package together for me until they had proof of my recent salary.

And no, there weren't other contemporaneous offers on the table at the time, nor were there other employers in my industry whose practices greatly differed from above.

In short, I think this a great consumer protection rule. Not really consumer, but little guy/girl protection rule.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#445

Post by pmoriarty »

dboat wrote: post #318
pmoriarty wrote: post #43

I never answer questions about my past or expected salary, not to employers and not to recruiters. Most employers don't ask, and the few that have (perhaps by having a part of an employment form ask for previous salary) have never made my leaving that information out an issue. Most recruiters, if they even ask, respect my decision not to talk about it, but I've been pressed hard on this by a handful of recruiters, an…

In the interviews I've been to, it is not unusual to have them ask you how much you are expecting for a salary. I've thought about this before and I don't see a way to refuse to answer that question without breaking the flow and tone of the interview. Do you recall any specific responses you've made to that question which allowed you to avoid answering it but still yielded positive results?

I simply say that I don't discuss that until I have an offer in hand.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#446

Post by SilasX »

gregmac wrote: post #188
jnwatson wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. An additional argument for lying is that you're probably already lying in other parts of the interview. Why do you want to work here? (money, and the desire to pay the bills and feed my children) Where do you see yourself in 5 years? (probably not at this company) What is your biggest weakness? (not like I would actually tell a stranger a real answer)

If these are honestly your answers to these questions and you in fact give lies as answers, you sound like exactly the type of person I absolutely hate working with and actively try to weed out during interviewing. To anyone reading this new to the industry, there are absolutely legitimate ways to answer these questions without lying. > Why do you want to work here? (money, and the desire to pay the bills and feed my…

>>What is your biggest weakness? (not like I would actually tell a stranger a real answer)

>This is kind of a crappy interview question, but there are decent ways to answer it [1]. They are not asking for your deep, personal failings, but for your weaknesses as they apply to the job at hand.

As best I understand the literature on it, what they're (effectively) asking is:

"Are you one of the cool kids who knows we want to hear a pre-packaged, nice-sounding answer about a time you overcame some weakness?"

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#447

Post by matwood »

sitkack wrote: post #176
pmoriarty wrote: post #43

I never answer questions about my past or expected salary, not to employers and not to recruiters. Most employers don't ask, and the few that have (perhaps by having a part of an employment form ask for previous salary) have never made my leaving that information out an issue. Most recruiters, if they even ask, respect my decision not to talk about it, but I've been pressed hard on this by a handful of recruiters, an…

Both Google and Oracle made it a condition of getting hired. Meaning they were ready to walk away if previous pay wasn't disclosed. Oracle even wanted scans of W2s ...

> Oracle even wanted scans of W2s

I can't find anything corroborating this. I looked because it sounds so wrong that it should be illegal. My w2s are private and personal tax data. A future employer has not business knowing anything about them.

The only thing I can think of is they were trying to use the w2s to verify residency...

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#448

Post by matwood »

akud wrote: post #262
manyxcxi wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never gotten a lot of grief about disclosing past salary. I generally try to set the anchor and conversation around what I want to be making to join their company. I have (very fortunately) never been in the position where I _had_ to leave or accept an offer on anything but my own terms, I feel that when you're negotiating from that position, the complete lack of pressure to accept a lower number becomes pretty…

To me asking for the previous salary - especially asking for proof - shows a lack of respect for the candidate. It's on the employer to quantify the value a skilled employee brings to the organization. I've walked away from offers because I didn't like the way they negotiated.

> To me asking for the previous salary - especially asking for proof - shows a lack of respect for the candidate.

Totally agree. It really sets up a us vs. them before the employee even starts work.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#449

Post by curun1r »

louisswiss wrote: post #376
komali2 wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're confusing two sales concepts - first to talk, and anchoring. Anchoring is a more general marketing concept that works well in advertisements (crossing out a black $280 and putting a red $100 underneath it). Anchoring doesn't work so well for something much more fluid (and with much more at stake) such as a salary negotiation. In-person sales meetings (which is what an interview is, for both sides) are…

I'm not confusing two sales concepts - you are. I don't know much about 'first to talk', but my limited understanding is that it means just that (the person who engages first in a negotiation comes out worse). Anchoring is about setting the parameters of the negotiation - you don't need to speak first. >>In negotiations, anchoring refers to the concept of setting a boundary that outlines the basic constraints for a n…

Anchoring might work if there wasn't an information asymmetry dynamic at play. But companies have way more data on salaries than applicants do. If you anchor too high, they'll just pass since they know what others are paying and know you won't get that elsewhere. If you anchor too low, the negotiations will be win-win for them. When I was hiring and someone came in too low, I'd often offer well above their anchor since I didn't want them leaving as soon as they found out how much more they were worth. But most employers don't do that.

What you're saying would be true if companies were navigating the process as blindly as candidates are. Then a high anchor could lead the employer to negotiating from a position of weakness. But, armed with data, companies don't do that.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#450

Post by matwood »

devmunchies wrote: post #168
tarr11 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how (good) sales works.

haha. yeah ok. My company has sales guys closing 6 to 8 figure deals every quarter and they "stretch the truth" all the time. Its part of sales. Thats why I only did sales for 2 years... the pay is the best but its an emotional roller coaster.

> My company has sales guys closing 6 to 8 figure deals every quarter and they "stretch the truth" all the time.

Best term I heard for that was 'overhang the market'. Sales people promising features that are only sort of on the roadmap at some point in the future :)

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