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An off-grid social network

staltz.com

261–270 of 383 posts

Re: An off-grid social network

#261

A hipster living on a self-steering sailing boat has 600 modules published on NPM. I can't even. Seriously how could this be even more funny?!

It's pretty funny because of the stereotype. On the other hand, it makes sense that someone dedicated to improving the state of privacy and personal data ownership lives on a boat. If he decides the government becomes too authoritarian, he just leaves with all his stuff. No go-bag needed because he has a go-house. Lay low in SEA near a wifi hotspot or something. You can't escape the reach of corporations, but he (and others) are working on it in the form of scuttlebutt.

Re: An off-grid social network

#262
post #185

Does it normally take too long indexing database? since I started the app have been a long while. I thought this could be a nice tool to use in places like Cuba, but I've realized now, that once connected to a Pub it download more than 1 GB, that would be a problem too in a place with lack of internet bandwidth.

It can take a while to index the database.

In places lacking internet bandwidth, people could run pubs in hackerspaces, schools, offices, homes, Actual Pubs, etc. A pub in a place that people frequent would gossip messages for the people, so they would not all need to connect to the internet all the time. Even the pub itself doesn't have to connect to the internet for it to be useful, as it would still help messages spread when people connect to it. As long as someone in the network connects to the Internet at least once in a while, people will be able to communicate with the broader network. With this architecture we can make more efficient cooperative use of network bandwidth.

Re: An off-grid social network

#263
post #31

Why do all "social networks" have to be a feed of news? Couldn't anyone think of anything better than a system in which people are only encouraged to talk about themselves and try to get other people's approval? In which having more "friends" is always better, because you have more potential for self-agrandissement in your narcissistic posts?

I'm all ears.

Social networks could be topic-oriented rather then "me-oriented". Like reddit but more personal.

Re: An off-grid social network

#264
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as an academic who studies distributed systems, my advise is to stay away from anything that relies on a public DHT to work correctly. They're vulnerable to node churn, Sybil attacks, and routing attacks. The last two are particularly devastating. Even if the peers had a key/value whitelist and hashes (e.g. like a .torrent file), an adversary can still insert itself into the routing tables of honest nodes an…

In practice none of those attacks have yet reached a level of concern for bittorrent developers to deploy serious countermeasures. Torrents generally are considered public data, especially those made available through the DHT, and provide peer exchange which allows near-complete extraction of peer lists anyway, so it hardly introduces any new privacy leaks. Although maintaining secrecy while exchanging data over publ…

> Although maintaining secrecy while exchanging data over public infrastructure is desirable, that can be achieved by encrypting the payload instead of obscuring the fact that you participated in the network at all.

If I'm "in" on the sharing, then I learn the IP addresses (and ISPs and proximate locations) of the other people downloading the shared file. Moreover, if I control the right hash buckets in the DHT's key space, I can learn from routing queries who's looking for the content (even if they haven't begun to share it yet). Encryption alone does not make file-sharing a private affair.

> BEP42[0] has been implemented by many clients and yet nobody has felt the need to actually switching to enforcement mode.

It also does not appear to solve the problem. The attacker only needs to get control of hash buckets to launch routing attacks. Even with a small number of unchanging node IDs, the attacker is still free to insert a pathological sequence of key/value pairs to bump hash buckets from other nodes to them.

> All that is the result of the bittorrent DHT being a low-value target. It does not contain any juicy information and is just one of multiple peer discovery mechanisms, so there's some redundancy too.

Are you suggesting that high-value apps should not rely on a DHT, then?

Re: An off-grid social network

#265
post #173

As a historical note, there used to be quite a few very popular solutions for supporting early social networks over intermittent protocols. UUCP [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UUCP ] used the computers' modems to dial out to other computers, establishing temporary, point-to-point links between them. Each system in a UUCP network has a list of neighbor systems, with phone numbers, login names and passwords, etc. Fido…

It's slightly misleading to refer to Fidonet only in the context of Russia. It was popular in quite a lot of places around the world, not just Russia. Not even principally Russia, in its heyday. These things are definitely systems to learn from, both their architectures and their histories; and people have already been drawing parallels to Usenet on this very page, notice.

When I said that Fidonet was a very popular alternative to internet in Russia as late as 1990s, I didn't mean that it was limited to Russia, but that in Russia particularly (well, FSU) it was still popular even in late 90s, while elsewhere in the world it was subsumed by internet.

Re: An off-grid social network

#266
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice none of those attacks have yet reached a level of concern for bittorrent developers to deploy serious countermeasures. Torrents generally are considered public data, especially those made available through the DHT, and provide peer exchange which allows near-complete extraction of peer lists anyway, so it hardly introduces any new privacy leaks. Although maintaining secrecy while exchanging data over publ…

> Although maintaining secrecy while exchanging data over public infrastructure is desirable, that can be achieved by encrypting the payload instead of obscuring the fact that you participated in the network at all. If I'm "in" on the sharing, then I learn the IP addresses (and ISPs and proximate locations) of the other people downloading the shared file. Moreover, if I control the right hash buckets in the DHT's key…

> Encryption alone does not make file-sharing a private affair.

Someone who is "in" on encrypted content can observe the swarm anyway, thus gains very little from performing snooping on a DHT. On the other hand a passive DHT observer who is not "in" will be hampered by not knowing what content is shared, he only sees participation in opaque hashes. Additionally payload encryption adds deniability because anyone can transfer the ciphertext but participants won't know whether others have the necessary keys to decrypt it.

What I'm saying is that any information leakage via the DHT (compared to public trackers and PEX) is quite small, and this small loss can be more than made up by adding payload encryption.

> the attacker is still free to insert a pathological sequence of key/value pairs to bump hash buckets from other nodes to them.

There is no bumping in kademlia with unbounded node storage. And clients with limited storage can make bumping very hard for others with oldest-first and one-per-subnet policies, i.e. bumping the attackers instead of genuine keys.

> Are you suggesting that high-value apps should not rely on a DHT, then?

No, they should use DHT as a bootstrap mechanism of easy-to-replicate, difficult-to-disrupt small bits of information (e.g. peer contacts as in bittorrent) which then run their own content-specific gossip network for the critical content. In some contexts it can also make sense to make reverse lookups difficult, so attackers won't know what to disrupt unless they're already part of some group.

Re: An off-grid social network

#267

As a historical note, there used to be quite a few very popular solutions for supporting early social networks over intermittent protocols. UUCP [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UUCP ] used the computers' modems to dial out to other computers, establishing temporary, point-to-point links between them. Each system in a UUCP network has a list of neighbor systems, with phone numbers, login names and passwords, etc. Fido…

Bang paths are still supported in email addresses too! Your email address might be george@cmu!vax!something!mitre!foo Which meant Route the email through foo->mitre->something->vax->cmu. Sysadmins would often keep tables of known routes. While people would describe their route from common known routing hosts. We were so living in the cyberpunk future then.

Yep my connection back then was uucp on an Atari ST off 720k floppy no hard drive, through a 1200 baud modem, running a set of a mix of ported GNU utilities and Atari software to get usenet and email. My email address was a bang-path ...

And we liked it!

Re: An off-grid social network

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire stackexchange and English Wikipedia dumps including all media is less than 90 Gig. Even low end cell phones have men expansion slots to 128 gig. Whatever you plan to do socially maintaining a local copy is not a storage issue. Non of the cloud ppl will tell you that though.

But I bet Facebook is much larger. If this were to really meet my needs (i.e. people I actually know start using it regularly), I can see this becoming an issue that needs to be solved, especially on mobile. Bitcoin ran into this issue as well, the need for a client to get the whole blockchain. I can see some solutions once cross device identity is done where I get a small amount of the network, perhaps the most rece…

> But I bet Facebook is much larger.

Thank goodness Facebook isn't what I want my social feed to look like... all those GIFs and garbage updates.

Also, I suppose if you're linking out of the SocialApp and into the Web, that most of the content is just "messages".

> then it syncs up with the larger storage on my home PC later.

I can hardly wait for devices that work this way.

Re: An off-grid social network

#269
This seems similar to the (now defunct) project Opera Unite[1]. Basically Opera turned each browser into a kind of server.

Granted, Unite still used the Web, Opera accounts, and ISPs, but I believe it could communicate locally over a router too.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oJd9lGWbWI

Re: An off-grid social network

#270
post #244

Since the author didnt mention it, the original creator of the patchwork project is https://github.com/pfrazee When I used it, which admitedly was a long time ago now, the biggest setback was lack of cross device identities. So I ended up having two accounts with two feeds, `wesAtWork` and `wes`. Maybe they have solved this by now. ps. Does patchwork still have the little gif maker? Because that was a super fun featu…

Can you (or someone) clarify the difference between Patchwork and SSB? Does SSB handle the networking and discovery and encryption and whatnot, and Patchwork just acts as front-end for displaying diaries, connecting to pubs, posting and so forth?

Patchwork is a user interface for displaying messages from the distributed database to the user, and to allow the user to add new messages. The underlying protocol supports arbitrary message types, patchwork exposes a UI for interacting with a subset of them. Anyone could write and use other UIs while still contributing to the same database. Patchbay[1] for example is a more developer-centric frontend.

Under the hood, patchwork connects to a scuttlebot[2] server. Scuttlebot in turn is based on secure-scuttlebutt (ssb).

[1] https://github.com/ssbc/patchbay [2] http://scuttlebot.io/

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