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Google ditches Windows on security concerns

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Re: Google ditches Windows on security concerns

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, when you looked at e.g. the web server data back in the early 2000's, you had 70% apache 25% IIS -- and yet about 20 times as many exploits (and much more effective at that) for IIS. The reason was, to put it bluntly, that IIS was designed without any regard to real security, whereas Apache had _some_ regard to security. That's also the case for Windows through its history; it has been making leaps recently,…

I would like to hear the specific ways in which you think that Apache was designed for security in ways that IIS wasn't, and how those things persist into modern IIS.

To start with, Apache default setup would bind to port 80 and switch to user 'apache' or 'httpd', whereas IIS (back then, that was IIS4/5 days) default and hard-to-change setup was that it was running with SYSTEM priviliges.

There had been security audits of the apache code base since its early dates (as NCSA Web Server), whereas IIS didn't (or, judging from its track record, if it did have they were done by incompetents who didn't notice the strcpy(host_field, ...) would overflow with a host name > 1024 bytes.

IIS had everything in the same process, meaning every thing exploitable somewhere would bring the whole server with it. Apache used a worse-performing but better compartmentalized process-per-request model.

Just to be clear, apache at the time was NOT a beacon of security or good design or anything. But it did follow standard Unix practices, which put it a significantly better place than the IIS of the time (which was written like a Windows desktop program). At the time, IIS exploits were being found at a rate of 4 remote roots per month, with worms actively exploiting them, whereas apache had one of these every several months, usually only exploitable if you knew the exact O/S version it was running on.

Re: Google ditches Windows on security concerns

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but there are several other factors to take into consideration. 1> Very few Macs are running anti virus/spyware software, as the users generally believe their systems to be immune to malware 2> The malware authors are probably already targeting Windows, why not do Macs as well? The sites I work with are up to 25% Mac usage now. That is significant. 3> As Mac browsers have not been attacked as often and scrutini…

You ask: So, in summary: it might be relatively easy, plus, why not. I answer: Because for the same amount of effort you can make an order of magnitude more money.

I assume malware authors would be targeting Mac OS in addition to, not instead of, Windows.

The same logic works out for normal ('voluntary') software applications, doesn't it? Most companies decide to focus their efforts on producing software for Windows, based on the idea that the market is much larger. Companies nevertheless do decide to produce software for Macs, for various reasons.

Re: Google ditches Windows on security concerns

#153
post #96
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core difference between Unix and Windows, that has persisted since the beginning, is that by default on any Unix you get a user account which is different from the root account. On Windows, this hasn't even been possible until a few years ago (Vista? 7?), and AFAIK you still have to specifically configure Windows to give you a user account that really, really has no administrator rights. My parents wouldn't know…

On Linux, if someone hacks my browser all I could ever lose is the stuff on my home directory. Of course these tend to be precisely the only things you actually care about in the whole system. Assuming it's a desktop machine of course.

I have backups for my files anyway. Everyone should.

It's the long, painful reinstallation process that I would have to do on a typical Windows machine to fully restore the pristine installation state after a virus/malware attack.

Re: Google ditches Windows on security concerns

#154
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To us - IT guys - they look alike, and we can stay away from dangers quite easily. To an average user - and I know what I'm talking about, since I've taught IT security to those average users - Windows' security architecture - UAC, applications (badly) designed to run as Administrator, ecc.- is full of pitfalls. I guess not everybody at Google is an hacker.

Badly designed applications have nothing to do with Vista or greater's "security architecture", so that leaves UAC. Do you feel UAC has a worse security design than the privilege escalation mechanism on OS X? Or - since you mention teaching end users - are you talking about a user education issue?

> Badly designed applications have nothing to do with Vista or greater's "security architecture", so that leaves UAC.

We agree, from a technical point of view. OTOH, applications are the system, from a user's point of view, and Windows has "taught" programmers to write applications which run under high privileges. A Windows program requiring administrative privileges to run is not seen as defective: just disable UAC and it works flawlessly ;-) I guess a similar behaving OS X or Linux program would not have it that easy.

> Do you feel UAC has a worse security design than the privilege escalation mechanism on OS X?

I don't know about OS X. Linux user here.

If we look at it as techies, UAC is sound. If we look at it as average users, it is not. It's an usability issue.

> Or - since you mention teaching end users - are you talking about a user education issue?

Exactly. I think that a safe usage of a Windows system requires too much education. That's it.

Re: Google ditches Windows on security concerns

#155
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Badly designed applications have nothing to do with Vista or greater's "security architecture", so that leaves UAC. Do you feel UAC has a worse security design than the privilege escalation mechanism on OS X? Or - since you mention teaching end users - are you talking about a user education issue?

> Badly designed applications have nothing to do with Vista or greater's "security architecture", so that leaves UAC. We agree, from a technical point of view. OTOH, applications are the system, from a user's point of view, and Windows has "taught" programmers to write applications which run under high privileges. A Windows program requiring administrative privileges to run is not seen as defective: just disable UAC…

However, my guess is that Google's move is more of a business decision.

Re: Google ditches Windows on security concerns

#157

Is there any evidence that Windows 7 is less secured than Snow Leopard? Windows employs more advanced security techniques. IE has outlasted Safari in Pwn2Own since IE8. Windows releases security fixes much faster. If they favor OS X over Windows that is completely fine, but I think they are implying something that isn't true in regards to security. If someone exploits OS X on them, is everyone moving to Linux next?

No. There is no evidence that Windows 7 is less secure than Mac OS X Snow Leopard --- at least, not clear evidence (we could certainly spend a few days tit-for-tat'ing about this disclosure or that, but it wouldn't amount to a coherent argument).

Except for in default configuration, with a user account that's passworded, there's this massive at-console exploit that requires no specialist knowledge other than very basic shell knowledge. cmd+s on boot.

Re: Google ditches Windows on security concerns

#158
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. There is no evidence that Windows 7 is less secure than Mac OS X Snow Leopard --- at least, not clear evidence (we could certainly spend a few days tit-for-tat'ing about this disclosure or that, but it wouldn't amount to a coherent argument).

Except for in default configuration, with a user account that's passworded, there's this massive at-console exploit that requires no specialist knowledge other than very basic shell knowledge. cmd+s on boot.

If you have physical access to the machine, all bets are off anyway.
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