Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

John Gruber jumps the shark

whydoeseverythingsuck.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 120 posts

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#51

Post by pohl »

jdminhbg wrote: post #44
pohl wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the error is Hank's, for not reading that sentence in context. John is addressing an existential claim made by Jason Snell: Snell’s argument is that Apple should do this to nip the argument that the iPhone is too closed. But if Apple did exactly what Snell argues, critics would still harp on the closed App Store.

I'm not sure how that context changes the sentence. If you're saying Gruber is referring to those critics in particular (rather than all critics, or critics in general), he should have started his sentence with "These iPhone critics..." Or, to add context to my test sentences: "John Smith weighs in at an astounding 350 pounds, but that's not hard to understand. Americans rarely get any exercise." The second sentence…

I'm not sure how that context changes the sentence.

The context makes it obvious which sentences are part of the author's thesis, and which are snark. Quoting the snark in isolation tells you only that Gruber is capable of sarcasm.

Edit: what's most interesting to me here is that Hank doesn't seem at all interested in Gruber's thesis, let alone in attacking it. He just seems interested in attacking Gruber.

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#52

Post by frou_dh »

KirinDave wrote: post #39

So, Protip: The word “fanboi” is as ridiculous and juvenile as ”M$”, ”demorat”, “republiscams”, or any other goofy little pun moniker. I half expected the final paragraph to close with an “All Your Base” reference after seeing the word “fanboi”. I know people don't read Hank for the cleverly barbed and expertly crafted prose... but, really? Fanboi?

This needs to be broadcast to the entire internet population. It's incredible how widespread (and instantly reached for) the term and its conventionally spelled sibling have become.

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#53

Post by smackfu »

isleyaardvark wrote: post #18

It was probably an off-hand comment, but it speaks volumes about where John's current psyche is. He said: iPhone critics have seldom let facts get in their way. It does say a lot about John's thinking. He's thinking that there is a lot of criticism of the iPhone is not based on facts. Not only did he link to an earlier article that very day that had 10 reasons not to buy an iPad that Gruber says got 9 out of 10 reaso…

Here's the full context:

"Snell’s argument is that Apple should do this to nip the argument that the iPhone is too closed. But if Apple did exactly what Snell argues, critics would still harp on the closed App Store. iPhone critics have seldom let facts get in their way."

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#54

Post by WiseWeasel »

frou_dh wrote: post #52
KirinDave wrote: post #39

So, Protip: The word “fanboi” is as ridiculous and juvenile as ”M$”, ”demorat”, “republiscams”, or any other goofy little pun moniker. I half expected the final paragraph to close with an “All Your Base” reference after seeing the word “fanboi”. I know people don't read Hank for the cleverly barbed and expertly crafted prose... but, really? Fanboi?

This needs to be broadcast to the entire internet population. It's incredible how widespread (and instantly reached for) the term and its conventionally spelled sibling have become.

The difference is that there are (seldom) times when it's socially acceptable to use the word "fanboy", but it's never OK to say "fanboi".

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#55

Post by WiseWeasel »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #46

I'm not at all sure I see the difference in Gruber saying "iPhone critics have seldom let facts get in their way." and Williams saying "Of course in the current climate, conservatism seems to be becoming more "fact free" (think Obama birth certificate and death panels), so there are fewer reasonably argued ideas to embrace."

Well, to be pedantic, one is an absolute judgment, the other is a relative one. "Seldom" implies that a significant majority of iPhone critics do not let facts get in their way. "Becoming more" implies that there is a trend towards freedom from facts, but does not place a judgment on the absolute degree of fact-freedom.

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#56

Post by danh »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #24

Funnily enough, my own thoughts about Gruber becoming annoying recently (after reading him for years) is because Gruber has started commenting on things he doesn't understand the facts of e.g. codec patents. He'll just come up with some pro-Apple spin and go with that, actual reality is often replaced with spiteful snark. e.g. http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/06/03/android-battery-... The first thing I did with…

Also (from right now) it seems that Gruber doesn't know what browser sniffing is (or at least pretends to), but still has an opinion:

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/06/04/html5-safari-ope...

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#57

Post by [deleted] »

WiseWeasel wrote: post #54
frou_dh wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This needs to be broadcast to the entire internet population. It's incredible how widespread (and instantly reached for) the term and its conventionally spelled sibling have become.

The difference is that there are (seldom) times when it's socially acceptable to use the word "fanboy", but it's never OK to say "fanboi".

[deleted]

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#58

Post by jordanroher »

bradleyland wrote: post #49
jordanroher wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree wholeheartedly with the inner conflict aspect, but I wonder about Gruber's inner hacker as it applies to the App Store. From his projects page, it seems that Gruber works on small command-line tools and extensions to other people's software. I'm not trying to impugn his coding credentials; his writing doesn't hinge on how far he's made it past HELLO WORLD. But none of the software he writes would be the sort…

Despite John being one of the two people behind Markdown (a pretty significant programming contribution), I see what you mean about him being in a "I don't have a horse in this race" position. However, I think that allows him to objectify a little bit more than others... I can almost feel the rumble of the laughter in the audience. Let me provide some examples. John doesn't like the way the App Store functions in its…

Wonderful list of quotes. I read DF a lot, often gritting my teeth, and this is an accurate summary of his points regarding the App Store.

I agree on John's recent insistence that web apps are the solution to App Store woes. But that feels like a cop-out. Apple hasn't fixed the three problems Gruber identified in October 2008 from his article on "The Fear", which are:

(1) App Ideas Are Rejected Only After the Apps Are Actually Built; (2) There Exist Secret Unpublished Rules Regarding What Is Allowed; and (3) When Apps Are Rejected for Violating the Unpublished Rules, Apple Refuses to State Just What These Rules Are

http://daringfireball.net/2008/10/the_fear

They've gotten a little better on point 3. When My Frame was rejected, the developer did get a phone call and an e-mail from Steve jobs saying that they now refuse an entire category of apps. It's not much better, as Apple didn't give any justification for why they sent this rejection. Are they planning their own desktop environment? Do they think the app competes with the built-in photo frame functionality of the iPad? Who knows?

It depresses me that Gruber doesn't see the "build your software as a web app" angle as a cop-out. Instead of fixing these reasonable problems with the App Store that it would be in Apple's best interests to fix, Apple ignores them and highlights an entirely other method of delivering content to users.

I imagine a restaurant with chicken and fish on the menu. The chicken will randomly come out poisoned, but the fish always comes out fine. When someone complains about being sickened by the chicken, the owner says, "just order the fish."

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#59

Post by cromulent »

sounddust wrote: post #13

The author writes an entire article accusing Gruber of failing to follow his assumptions to a truthful conclusion without giving a single example of him doing so. I think that there's a lot of criticism toward Gruber because his opinions are not a carbon-copy of the unified public geek opinion that you'd see on a site like Slashdot. I think it's refreshing to see a solitary source of Apple commentary in which the aut…

I would add that you also have to judge DF's trajectory against Apple's.

In the six or so years that DF has been running, Apple's product range, market share, mind share, and market capitalization have all grown remarkably (if not their own internal attitude), and with that has come a flood of both supporters and critics.

DF is not commenting on fringe products such as OSX 10.3 anymore. He's commenting on a major mobile phone manufacturer and the maker of an popular and unusual new computing tablet.

I would venture that Gruber feels no need to feed the Apple supporters, but he does feel a need to call the critics out when they just don't understand Apple or advise Apple to behave more like other tech companies.

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#60

Post by cpr »

smackfu wrote: post #29
adolph wrote: post #26

I think another interesting quote is: "I used to trust John Gruber. Now I will just read him." I'm not certain what there is to trust about Gruber--follow the links and read things through if it is interesting. I'm mostly a fan of "claim chowder," so maybe the author is focused on other things.

Wow, I hate the "claim chowder". The worst kind of journalism.

Why? Shouldn't journalists (including Gruber) be held to some kind of truthy standard about their claims?
Post reply on HN