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John Gruber jumps the shark

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Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#41

Post by steveklabnik »

watty wrote: post #17

One Apple blogger accusing another Apple blogger of being a fanboi? Does this really need to be top of HN? Edit: Can you at least reply when you down vote? I know this was voted to the top of HN so it deserves to be there.

> Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did.

http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#42

Post by pohl »

jdminhbg wrote: post #40
pohl wrote: post #8

iPhone critics have seldom let facts get in their way. Essentially, anyone who has criticized the iPhone, or presumably Apple is just someone not dealing with the facts. Hank, your critique falls apart when you switch what should be an existential quantifier with a universal quantifier.

No, the error there is Gruber's. "Americans rarely get any exercise." "French people rarely bathe." If Gruber doesn't want it to be taken as "all iPhone critics," he should specify.

No, the error is Hank's, for not reading that sentence in context. John is addressing an existential claim made by Jason Snell:

Snell’s argument is that Apple should do this to nip the argument that the iPhone is too closed. But if Apple did exactly what Snell argues, critics would still harp on the closed App Store.

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#44

Post by jdminhbg »

pohl wrote: post #42
jdminhbg wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the error there is Gruber's. "Americans rarely get any exercise." "French people rarely bathe." If Gruber doesn't want it to be taken as "all iPhone critics," he should specify.

No, the error is Hank's, for not reading that sentence in context. John is addressing an existential claim made by Jason Snell: Snell’s argument is that Apple should do this to nip the argument that the iPhone is too closed. But if Apple did exactly what Snell argues, critics would still harp on the closed App Store.

I'm not sure how that context changes the sentence. If you're saying Gruber is referring to those critics in particular (rather than all critics, or critics in general), he should have started his sentence with "These iPhone critics..." Or, to add context to my test sentences:

"John Smith weighs in at an astounding 350 pounds, but that's not hard to understand. Americans rarely get any exercise."

The second sentence still means what it meant before.

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#45

Post by jordanroher »

bradleyland wrote: post #30
gabrielroth wrote: post #9

Like all prominent bloggers, Gruber could use some insightful criticism. Too bad this post doesn't offer any. A thousand words that add up to "I can't really put my finger on it or name any specifics, but Daring Fireball seems more uncritically approving of Apple lately" is fine for pub conversation, but it's not much use as reasoned argument. How could Gruber respond to this? The only specific point of Gruber's that…

I agree 100%. I think the reality is probably closer to this. In the past, Hank probably agreed with John more than he disagreed, so it was easy for him to resolve any internal conflict; there was little of it. This was during a time when Apple primarily made desktop/laptop computers with a standard desktop operating system -- as opposed to operating systems like iPhone OS -- that was sufficiently Unix-like to please…

I agree wholeheartedly with the inner conflict aspect, but I wonder about Gruber's inner hacker as it applies to the App Store.

From his projects page, it seems that Gruber works on small command-line tools and extensions to other people's software. I'm not trying to impugn his coding credentials; his writing doesn't hinge on how far he's made it past HELLO WORLD. But none of the software he writes would be the sort of thing that would make it on to the App Store even if Apple fired their reviewers and opened the floodgates.

He takes the "Apple does X because it's in their best interests to do X" stance because his livelihood doesn't hinge on whether the App Store is open, closed, or purple.

I suspect we'd have a very different Daring Fireball if he finished his dream mail app "Letters" and tried to release it on the App Store. Would it be rejected because it "duplicates existing functionality?" Or because someone can use it to e-mail the Kama Sutra? Or some other arbitrary rule Apple has yet to invent? Or would he not even bother, for fear of wasting time developing software that he couldn't sell?

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#46

Post by ryanwaggoner »

I'm not at all sure I see the difference in Gruber saying "iPhone critics have seldom let facts get in their way." and Williams saying "Of course in the current climate, conservatism seems to be becoming more "fact free" (think Obama birth certificate and death panels), so there are fewer reasonably argued ideas to embrace."

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#47

Post by pauljonas »

For me, the Gruber-bot jumped the shark a long time ago.

I really don't get the appeal of his writing — other than an occasional Apple apologetic, it appears to be nothing more than a tumblelog of Apple bits, but yet he's paid a premium for it, due to high profile linkage…

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#48

Post by dhimes »

raganwald wrote: post #25
noonespecial wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know (especially by the quick upvotes) that you are preaching to the choir here, but I have noticed a lot of non-thechnical, non-geek, never-even-heard-of-happy-days types beginning to use this phrase (incorrectly) just in the past few months. I've given up explaining who the Fonz is and just accepted this new reality. Once a meme goes mainstream, the primary idiom dilutes with use until its just a curios catch phr…

Well, I don't mind so much that the origin is lost, it becomes a pleasant bit of trivia I will inflict upon my hapless colleagues one day, just as I now explain exactly what the phrase "core dump" really means. But in this case I do like keeping true to the specific meaning even if the origin is lost in antiquity. I feel it's a useful distinction to make. As an example, I would say that some years ago John Dvorak jum…

A few years ago I heard Henry Winkler (who played "the Fonz," for those who don't know) give an interview on some radio show (probably NPR). They asked him about the phrase, and he said what was interesting to him about it was that after the "jump the shark" episode the show began attaining its highest ratings ever.

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#49

Post by bradleyland »

jordanroher wrote: post #45
bradleyland wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree 100%. I think the reality is probably closer to this. In the past, Hank probably agreed with John more than he disagreed, so it was easy for him to resolve any internal conflict; there was little of it. This was during a time when Apple primarily made desktop/laptop computers with a standard desktop operating system -- as opposed to operating systems like iPhone OS -- that was sufficiently Unix-like to please…

I agree wholeheartedly with the inner conflict aspect, but I wonder about Gruber's inner hacker as it applies to the App Store. From his projects page, it seems that Gruber works on small command-line tools and extensions to other people's software. I'm not trying to impugn his coding credentials; his writing doesn't hinge on how far he's made it past HELLO WORLD. But none of the software he writes would be the sort…

Despite John being one of the two people behind Markdown (a pretty significant programming contribution), I see what you mean about him being in a "I don't have a horse in this race" position. However, I think that allows him to objectify a little bit more than others... I can almost feel the rumble of the laughter in the audience. Let me provide some examples.

John doesn't like the way the App Store functions in its current state, but he understands why Apple operates it the way they do. As evidence that he doesn't like it, I'll offer some excerpts:

http://daringfireball.net/2010/06/iphone_os_too_closed

Jason Snell: "All Apple needs to do is add a new feature, buried several menu items down in the Settings app, that mirrors the one found on Android devices: an option that lets you install Apps from 'unknown sources.'"

John Gruber response: "Personally, I’d welcome such a move, but I don’t think it would have the effect Snell envisions."

A lot of what John Gruber says could be interpreted as back-handed agreement, were you not to trust him. But the body of his writing suggest that he's genuine.

-------------

http://daringfireball.net/2010/05/nack_control

John Nack: "The effect on product development and innovation can be chilling. Yes, it’s easy to point to 200,000 apps on the App Store; it’s harder to note all those that aren’t there — serious apps that will be created only if developers know they’ll get a truly fair shot to innovate and compete."

John Gruber: "I agree with much of this piece by John Nack today, regarding what everyone — developers, users, and even Apple itself — is missing out on because of Apple’s tight control and management of the App Store"

-------------

Back from 2008: http://daringfireball.net/2008/09/app_store_exclusion

Fraser Speirs: "Apple’s current practice of rejecting certain applications at the final hurdle — submission to the App Store — is disastrous for investor confidence."

John Gruber: "Exactly right. If you only find out at the end of the development process that your app has been rejected — not for a technical problem that you can address but because Apple deems the entire concept to be out of bounds — then who is going to put serious time and talent into an iPhone app?"

John Gruber conclusion: "Either way, something is seriously wrong."

-------------

http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/middleware_and_section_311

John Gruber: "I don’t know that Apple is right. As I said above, de Icaza’s perspective — that these decisions and risks should be up to individual developers to make — is utterly sensible. Siracusa is exactly right that this is a wager from Apple. Apple is betting its entire mobile future that their developer platform is better than everyone else’s."

It's especially evident that he's conflicted here. He doesn't necessarily agree, but he understands Apple's position.

-------------

There are a myriad of other places where he's been critical, yet understanding of the forces driving Apple. What's concerning is that recently, John has been reconciling this conflict -- seemingly as much for himself as for his audience -- by pushing the Web Apps as an alternative approach. I'd love to provide a link to support that, but it's more of a tone than a specific rant.

Based on the nine occurrences of "Web App" on Daring Fireball right now, as well as the injection of some links supporting criticism of the lack of a robust Web App IDE, I'd suspect that a thoroughly vetted rant is in the works.

Re: John Gruber jumps the shark

#50

Post by betageek »

bradleyland wrote: post #30
gabrielroth wrote: post #9

Like all prominent bloggers, Gruber could use some insightful criticism. Too bad this post doesn't offer any. A thousand words that add up to "I can't really put my finger on it or name any specifics, but Daring Fireball seems more uncritically approving of Apple lately" is fine for pub conversation, but it's not much use as reasoned argument. How could Gruber respond to this? The only specific point of Gruber's that…

I agree 100%. I think the reality is probably closer to this. In the past, Hank probably agreed with John more than he disagreed, so it was easy for him to resolve any internal conflict; there was little of it. This was during a time when Apple primarily made desktop/laptop computers with a standard desktop operating system -- as opposed to operating systems like iPhone OS -- that was sufficiently Unix-like to please…

Agree with the gist of this, but it's not just the geeks that are getting fed up with Apple. Apple's core "black t-shirt wearing design hipsters" user base are very annoyed with the Adobe/Flash situation which is causing them even more cognitive dissonance.
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