Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

ZeroNet – Uncensorable websites using Bitcoin crypto and BitTorrent network

zeronet.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 171 posts

Re: ZeroNet – Uncensorable websites using Bitcoin crypto and BitTorrent network

#101

Post by mirimir »

mirimir wrote: post #43
ballenf wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither argument has been tested, but the defense would that you were acting as an ISP with dumb pipes. Which logically leads to an unrelated question -- if ISPs are doing DPI on every packet, they at least theoretically 'know' whether you're transmitting 'illegal' content. If I were a rights holder, I'd be making that argument against ISPs. I don't know how I'd sleep at night, maybe, but I wouldn't let ISPs have the…

It's been tested for Freenet. LEA adversaries can participate, and identify peers. Judges issue subpoenas. Many defendants have accepted plea bargains. Plausible deniability doesn't work. What works is using Tor.

Too late to edit.

I should have said: "What works is using Whonix, or otherwise using Tor securely with leaks blocked."

Re: ZeroNet – Uncensorable websites using Bitcoin crypto and BitTorrent network

#102

Post by mirimir »

djsumdog wrote: post #97
mirimir wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been tested for Freenet. LEA adversaries can participate, and identify peers. Judges issue subpoenas. Many defendants have accepted plea bargains. Plausible deniability doesn't work. What works is using Tor.

Do you have a source for those cases? I did some searches but can't seem to find anything.

See https://freenetproject.org/news.html#news

I read up on this a while ago, but didn't keep links. There was some discussion on /r/Freenet. For example: https://www.reddit.com/r/Freenet/comments/5tnx81/freenet_use... Missouri police developed a custom Freenet client that logged everything. But I don't remember the name :(

Re: ZeroNet – Uncensorable websites using Bitcoin crypto and BitTorrent network

#103

Post by houst0n_ »

mirimir wrote: post #99
houst0n_ wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the workstation vm is pwned what stops it from hitting the usual home router internal network address and/or changing the route? Is there some network isolation going on which prevents that?

The workstation VM has no route to the home router except through the Tor gateway VM. With Whonix, the gateway VM isn't even a NAT router. Plus there are iptables rules that block everything except Tor. The gateway VM only exposes Tor SocksPorts to the workstation VM. You'd need to break the network stack in the gateway VM in order to bypass Tor.

Right so can't I just add one then? Most vm setups I might have a default route to the other VM running tor but I can still talk to e.g 192.168.0.1 even if I'm not putting traffic through it.

Is this some kind of 'vm specific' virtual network which can't talk on the real lan? Is that implemented on the hypervisor?

Re: ZeroNet – Uncensorable websites using Bitcoin crypto and BitTorrent network

#104

Post by mirimir »

djsumdog wrote: post #96
mirimir wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the FBI exploited a Firefox vulnerability to drop NIT malware on Playpen users. And said malware phoned home to FBI servers, bypassing Tor. However, any Whonix users would not have been affected, for two reasons. One, this was Windows malware, and Whonix is based on Debian. Two, Whonix comprises a pair of Debian VMs, a Tor-gateway VM and a workstation VM. Even if the malware had pwned the workstation VM, there i…

Wait, did they reveal how their exploit worked? I thought they had already dropped two cases rather than reveal the internals of the NIT? Like Tor Browser could still be unpatched for this?

Yes, they didn't reveal the Firefox bug or the details of NIT. And yes, Tor browser could still be vulnerable.

You must isolate Tor process and userland in separate VMs, or even separate physical devices. Even if the browser gets pwned, and the NIT gets dropped, you'll be OK, because the Internet is reachable only through Tor. Whonix is an easy to use implementation.

I've been ragging on Tor Project about this for years. But they don't want to frighten people by making Tor too complicated to use. You could be cynical, and say that they want the cannon fodder for their government masters. Or you could say that they think it's more important to protect the most people, rather than to most strongly protect technically competent people. I have no clue what the truth is. Maybe there's a range of opinion.

Re: ZeroNet – Uncensorable websites using Bitcoin crypto and BitTorrent network

#105

Post by mirimir »

j_s wrote: post #81
mirimir wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the FBI exploited a Firefox vulnerability to drop NIT malware on Playpen users. And said malware phoned home to FBI servers, bypassing Tor. However, any Whonix users would not have been affected, for two reasons. One, this was Windows malware, and Whonix is based on Debian. Two, Whonix comprises a pair of Debian VMs, a Tor-gateway VM and a workstation VM. Even if the malware had pwned the workstation VM, there i…

Then I recommend you change this: What works is using Tor. to this: What works is using [Whonix].

Too late to edit. But I added a comment. Thanks.

Re: ZeroNet – Uncensorable websites using Bitcoin crypto and BitTorrent network

#106

Post by mirimir »

houst0n_ wrote: post #103
mirimir wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The workstation VM has no route to the home router except through the Tor gateway VM. With Whonix, the gateway VM isn't even a NAT router. Plus there are iptables rules that block everything except Tor. The gateway VM only exposes Tor SocksPorts to the workstation VM. You'd need to break the network stack in the gateway VM in order to bypass Tor.

Right so can't I just add one then? Most vm setups I might have a default route to the other VM running tor but I can still talk to e.g 192.168.0.1 even if I'm not putting traffic through it. Is this some kind of 'vm specific' virtual network which can't talk on the real lan? Is that implemented on the hypervisor?

Yes, for Whonix it's a VirtualBox internal network. There's no direct routing through the host, only among VMs. You can do much the same on VMware.

Edit: I forget that I'm writing on HN. When I say VM, I'm referring to full OS-level VMs, not namespace, Java, etc VMs.

Re: ZeroNet – Uncensorable websites using Bitcoin crypto and BitTorrent network

#107

Post by kyledrake »

diggan wrote: post #58
shakna wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell yes, to both those points. At least IPFS is working hard towards Tor integration. That might be something one day.

> At least IPFS is working hard towards Tor integration. That might be something one day. Actually, that day is today already! OpenBazaar had the same need of a Tor transport and made one! It's available here: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/go-onion-transport/ Basically a plug-and-play transport for IPFS.

I hope they get a chance to add a better README to that, looks interesting.

Re: ZeroNet – Uncensorable websites using Bitcoin crypto and BitTorrent network

#108

Post by j_s »

houst0n_ wrote: post #90
mirimir wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the FBI exploited a Firefox vulnerability to drop NIT malware on Playpen users. And said malware phoned home to FBI servers, bypassing Tor. However, any Whonix users would not have been affected, for two reasons. One, this was Windows malware, and Whonix is based on Debian. Two, Whonix comprises a pair of Debian VMs, a Tor-gateway VM and a workstation VM. Even if the malware had pwned the workstation VM, there i…

If the workstation vm is pwned what stops it from hitting the usual home router internal network address and/or changing the route? Is there some network isolation going on which prevents that?

In theory breaking properly-configured Whonix would require a VM escape, pretty much the holy grail of exploits (a few have happened recently). The alternative is a complete break of Tor, which has proven unlikely.

Re: ZeroNet – Uncensorable websites using Bitcoin crypto and BitTorrent network

#109

Post by tokenizerrr »

freedaemon wrote: post #89

Love the ZeroNet project! Been following them for a year and they've made great progress. One thing that's concerning is the use of Namecoin for registering domains. Little known fact: A single miner has close to 65% or more mining power on Namecoin. Reported in this USENIX ATC'16 paper: https://www.usenix.org/node/196209 . Due to this reason some other projects have stopped using Namecoin. I'm curious what the ZeroN…

Also, if you ever lose control of a namecoin domain you can say goodbye to it forever. A squatter will take it instantly and hold on to it forever unless you buy it from them for actual money.

Re: ZeroNet – Uncensorable websites using Bitcoin crypto and BitTorrent network

#110

Post by houst0n_ »

mirimir wrote: post #106
houst0n_ wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right so can't I just add one then? Most vm setups I might have a default route to the other VM running tor but I can still talk to e.g 192.168.0.1 even if I'm not putting traffic through it. Is this some kind of 'vm specific' virtual network which can't talk on the real lan? Is that implemented on the hypervisor?

Yes, for Whonix it's a VirtualBox internal network. There's no direct routing through the host, only among VMs. You can do much the same on VMware. Edit: I forget that I'm writing on HN. When I say VM, I'm referring to full OS-level VMs, not namespace, Java, etc VMs.

That sounds like a pretty neat setup. I know I can just google all this so please forgive me the inane questions; it depends on virtualbox though?

That's a bit of a nonstarter for a few of.

We probably aren't the target base for the project though so maybe it doesn't matter...

Post reply on HN