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Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased birth weights

reuters.com

161–170 of 193 posts

Re: Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased birth weights

#161
post #117
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that Banqaio Dam was required anyway for flood control purposes, so the choice wasn't between killing 170,000 people and using some other form of power. All that not using hydroelectric power would've achieved is to ensure that nuclear proponents could no longer blame those deaths on hydroelectric power. Not only that, nuclear power didn't exist yet when it was built. Which is probably a good thing - Banqaiao…

Couldn't you use the same reasoning for Chernobyl? A requirement to build an electric power plant, sloppy construction, sloppy operation, resulting in a catastrophic accident.

Exactly. Chernobyl was an unsafe design, when safe(r) designs were well known. Its operation was not just sloppy, the operation that was performed was a crazy experiment that was well beyond the operating specs of the reactor, clearly illegal and unsafe even in the best of times.

Re: Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased birth weights

#162
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly to you sitting on the other side of the world. Not so for the thousands of people displaced who lost their homes and communities through no fault of their own and might be exposed to higher cancer rates in their lifetimes.

Yes, the evacuation zone almost certainly should have been smaller, that's one of the perverse effects of the panic about nuclear, that the mitigation efforts tend to be overblown (not that they should be zero), and therefore the damage from the mitigation much worse than it needs to be. But you missed the word " comparatively ". We have lots of human-/technology-induced deaths and injuries. We allow car traffic in o…

There are people who have returned to their old residences inside the Chernobyl danger zone and they're doing just fine.

Re: Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased birth weights

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coal vs nuclear just isn't an argument worth making. Clean coal and clean fission are arguably about as likely, and would be about as expensive. Why bother, when you have solar?

"Why bother, when you have solar?" Because solar is intermittent, and isn't practical at all in many parts of the world. The true environmental impact of nuclear is also arguably less, since solar requires a lot of space per watt produced by comparison. Next-gen nuclear reactor designs from Thorcon Power, Terrestrial and others are very near to perfectly safe, and also produce much less long-term nuclear waste than c…

> Because solar is intermittent, and isn't practical at all in many parts of the world.

The solution to that is simple, use less power at night. I.e. don't make so much aluminum when there is no sun or wind. We could decide as a society to trade a few percent of our wealth for using much less coal and nuclear if we wanted (and if our society were organized in a rational fashion).

Also: don't heat with electricty, but use e.g. solar thermal or geothermal power.

Re: Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased birth weights

#164
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The OFFICIAL REGULATION AUTHORITIES for nuclear safety in Japan had a different opinion" Citation needed. I could not find anything supporting that claim in the article you linked to. In fact, there is an article saying the regulator refused to shut down a plant [1] "Despite attempts by politicians in Tokyo to persuade them to do so, provincial governors and local communities won’t allow them to restart."[2] "Utilit…

> politicians having replaced the old one. So very clearly a political move. The old regulator: 'The Nuclear & Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) granted a 10-year licence extension for Fukushima Daiichi 1 in February 2011, after technical review and some modifications in 2010.' In March 2011, a month later, the reactor was destroyed incl. a fuel meltdown. It will take decades to clean up the mess. It wasn't even this r…

> Yeah, it was definitely a political move to replace the old regulator.

> The regulator was corrupt, incompetent, without power, .

And that was a legal decision? A technical decision? Oh wait, no! It was a political decision. Made by politicians.

> It took a political move to replace them.

Exactly. So why are you scoffing at me saying that it was a political move?

> Fully justified.

That's your (political) evaluation of that decision. Hmm...last I checked you scoffed at me for my evaluation.

You keep citing that article, but it proves my point.

"However, following the Fukushima accident, in October 2011 the government sought to greatly reduce the role of nuclear power."

Political decision.

Anyway, you still haven't provided any citations to prove your point, and haven't refuted my quotes that clearly show (a) that shutdowns were often routine maintenance (every 13 months) and (b) that blocking startup was frequently due to local political opposition.

So in essence, you have an opinion and not much else.

Re: Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased birth weights

#165
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> politicians having replaced the old one. So very clearly a political move. The old regulator: 'The Nuclear & Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) granted a 10-year licence extension for Fukushima Daiichi 1 in February 2011, after technical review and some modifications in 2010.' In March 2011, a month later, the reactor was destroyed incl. a fuel meltdown. It will take decades to clean up the mess. It wasn't even this r…

> Yeah, it was definitely a political move to replace the old regulator. > The regulator was corrupt, incompetent, without power, . And that was a legal decision? A technical decision? Oh wait, no! It was a political decision. Made by politicians. > It took a political move to replace them. Exactly. So why are you scoffing at me saying that it was a political move? > Fully justified. That's your (political) evaluatio…

> Oh wait, no! It was a political decision. Made by politicians.

I'm not sure where you live, but in the country where I live energy policy is done by elected politicians, not by unelected technocrats.

It's their job. That's why we elect them.

The decision to replace the old regulatory body was made because the old regulatory body failed. Technically. Practically. In every single way. A nuclear reactor which they just granted a 10 year lifetime extension blew up days later and was a total wreck then. A multi-billion-dollar-wreck. Who would have left these people in office?

> Political decision.

You say that in a negative way. Every decision done is political. You live in a fairy tale world if you think unelected technocrats should make the decisions. The job of a politician is to make decisions based on all kinds of influences: technical, economical, social, ... That's exactly their job. If a technology (here nuclear) is not safe, costly, has no acceptance, etc, ... then this technology has to be reduced/removed and has to be replaced by safer technologies.

Politicians decided to invest into nuclear and set up the market, the regulatory bodies, the financing, etc. for it. They can also decide to reduce or completely abandon nuclear - if the voters demand that. That's why we have them.

Energy policy is political. Energy policy decisions are finally made by politicians we can elect. Not by TEPCO, Toshiba, ... There are huge amounts of money involved, paid by the tax payer (there is no other insurance of a nuclear power plant, the tax payer pays this show: the taxpayer finances the research, the infrastructure, the financing of the plants, and it keeps bankrupt companies like TEPCO from collapsing by pouring more money into them) and by electricity consumers. No nuclear power plant would exist without political decisions, public money, and a distorted market. It's no wonder nuclear especially grows in authoritarian states like Russia and China. There unelected technocrats make the decisions in combination with authoritarian politicians.

> quotes that clearly show (a) that shutdowns were often routine maintenance (every 13 months) and (b) that blocking startup was frequently due to local political opposition.

You still have not read the overview of the World Nuclear Association. Japan had literally to invest many billions to upgrade their reactor fleet. Old ones which weren't economic to upgrade were closed. Dangerous ones, for example sitting on top of fault lines, are not being opened again.

Re: Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased birth weights

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coal vs nuclear just isn't an argument worth making. Clean coal and clean fission are arguably about as likely, and would be about as expensive. Why bother, when you have solar?

"Why bother, when you have solar?" Because solar is intermittent, and isn't practical at all in many parts of the world. The true environmental impact of nuclear is also arguably less, since solar requires a lot of space per watt produced by comparison. Next-gen nuclear reactor designs from Thorcon Power, Terrestrial and others are very near to perfectly safe, and also produce much less long-term nuclear waste than c…

Soon batteries will be able to handle that. Used Tesla batteries, for example.

Re: Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased birth weights

#167
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, it was definitely a political move to replace the old regulator. > The regulator was corrupt, incompetent, without power, . And that was a legal decision? A technical decision? Oh wait, no! It was a political decision. Made by politicians. > It took a political move to replace them. Exactly. So why are you scoffing at me saying that it was a political move? > Fully justified. That's your (political) evaluatio…

> Oh wait, no! It was a political decision. Made by politicians. I'm not sure where you live, but in the country where I live energy policy is done by elected politicians, not by unelected technocrats. It's their job. That's why we elect them. The decision to replace the old regulatory body was made because the old regulatory body failed. Technically. Practically. In every single way. A nuclear reactor which they jus…

Glad you finally agree that these were political decisions. That's what I was saying, not sure why you disagreed.

Re: Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased birth weights

#168
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh wait, no! It was a political decision. Made by politicians. I'm not sure where you live, but in the country where I live energy policy is done by elected politicians, not by unelected technocrats. It's their job. That's why we elect them. The decision to replace the old regulatory body was made because the old regulatory body failed. Technically. Practically. In every single way. A nuclear reactor which they jus…

Glad you finally agree that these were political decisions. That's what I was saying, not sure why you disagreed.

Political decisions based on obvious facts. Great that we agree. :-)

Re: Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased birth weights

#169
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now you understand a tiny part of the Energy business. 'Nuclear' is not only a technical problem, it is a financial problem. Old plants will be run until they collapse - unless a regulator keeps the companies from doing that. But then the regulator comes onto pressure, because there is huge amount of money/corruption involved to keep the plant online. Every single plant is a multi-billion dollar investment, jobs, sur…

The OP was talking specifically about closing existing plants before they reach their "end of life" date though.

Fukushima Daiichi 1 just go a ten year life extension in feb 2011.

A few days later it was a multi-billion-dollar wreck.

Not at 'end of life' obviously does not mean 'safe to operate'. 'end of life' is also not a fixed date. Once the initial 'end of life' date comes, the owner will see how to get a life extension. Fukushima Daiichi 1 had an inspection, some upgrades, got the life extension. Following month this was one of most costly decisions ever made in industry.

Re: Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased birth weights

#170
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad you finally agree that these were political decisions. That's what I was saying, not sure why you disagreed.

Political decisions based on obvious facts. Great that we agree. :-)

Political decisions based, as always, on political pressures.
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