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Is the F-35 a Trillion-Dollar Mistake?

bloomberg.com

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Re: Is the F-35 a Trillion-Dollar Mistake?

#11

Post by acchow »

probablybanned wrote: post #8
Gravityloss wrote: post #4

The previous article linked had about 20,000 words. It spoke a lot about various problems. Let's look at the gun for example. There's a small door that opens so the gun can fire. Apparently for stealth reasons. The opening door creates an aerodynamic disturbance and the plane yaws or does something else and the aim is off. So that has to be corrected in the flight software - the plane must countersteer with the tail…

For what it's worth, the F-22 has a similar system. Perhaps it's not such a problem because the aircraft is significantly larger. I don't know why the cannon door issue is taking so long to rectify but I can guess: Whoever is responsible for the weapons systems can't fix this themselves, it requires a modification to the flight control law, which is handled by a different team and any modification to that system requ…

But the program was massively delayed and technology has progressed dramatically. Why bring a jet to a drone fight? Or to a laser fight? Seems obsolete.

Re: Is the F-35 a Trillion-Dollar Mistake?

#12

Post by probablybanned »

acchow wrote: post #11
probablybanned wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, the F-22 has a similar system. Perhaps it's not such a problem because the aircraft is significantly larger. I don't know why the cannon door issue is taking so long to rectify but I can guess: Whoever is responsible for the weapons systems can't fix this themselves, it requires a modification to the flight control law, which is handled by a different team and any modification to that system requ…

But the program was massively delayed and technology has progressed dramatically. Why bring a jet to a drone fight? Or to a laser fight? Seems obsolete.

There are essential comms problems that will face any unmanned system that tries to take over the F-35's role. In the absence of a solution that is extremely low latency, immune to interference, and undetectable as radiated emission, you'd have to lean on computer AI to run the bulk of the mission autonomously. Nobody is ready to throw the switch on that.

A possible solution is to augment flights of manned fighters with unmanned drones as missile/bomb trucks. This gets you the force multiplier while keeping all communication short range and within line-of-sight. But you still need a stealthy, survivable manned fighter.

Overall it's a bit like saying why bother with a new generation of conventional cars when universal self-driving is right around the corner. Maybe it is, or maybe it isn't quite as close as you think. These are questions that are more appropriately asked of the N+1 generation fighter that may or may not be on the drawing boards at this time.

P.S. I've noticed the F-35 takes flak from both the extreme technological pessimists (drones/fighters can't take over the A10's role, low & slow manned flight is the only way to do CAS) and the extreme optimists (drones will make all manned flight obsolete next year). Seems to me neither faction has a very strong grasp of the state of military tech.

Re: Is the F-35 a Trillion-Dollar Mistake?

#14

Post by FullMtlAlcoholc »

unabridged wrote: post #13

How useful are fighter jets? Shouldn't we be building swarms of unmanned drones instead?

It's a multi-role fighter aircraft, not simply air superioity. It needs to be able to carry air to surface ordnance

We're not quite in the sci-fi future yet Drone swarms exist, but mostly do intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance in the field. The perdix drones that the us military does have are powered by propeller, so so they can't keep up with a fighter jet that can go Mach 1.6 or carry or current supply of air to surface missiles. I believe that the way they would attack a fighter aircraft is turn themselves into Kamikaze missiles.

They're still working the bugs out and trying to perfrct their autonomous behavior...which scares the shit out of me as I write this. This is the only application of AI that causes me fear and anxiety. Thankfully, they don't have any weapons platforms yet

Re: Is the F-35 a Trillion-Dollar Mistake?

#15

Post by petre »

acchow wrote: post #11
probablybanned wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, the F-22 has a similar system. Perhaps it's not such a problem because the aircraft is significantly larger. I don't know why the cannon door issue is taking so long to rectify but I can guess: Whoever is responsible for the weapons systems can't fix this themselves, it requires a modification to the flight control law, which is handled by a different team and any modification to that system requ…

But the program was massively delayed and technology has progressed dramatically. Why bring a jet to a drone fight? Or to a laser fight? Seems obsolete.

How would you fly a drone in a heavily jammed area?

Re: Is the F-35 a Trillion-Dollar Mistake?

#16

Post by Teever »

acchow wrote: post #11
probablybanned wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, the F-22 has a similar system. Perhaps it's not such a problem because the aircraft is significantly larger. I don't know why the cannon door issue is taking so long to rectify but I can guess: Whoever is responsible for the weapons systems can't fix this themselves, it requires a modification to the flight control law, which is handled by a different team and any modification to that system requ…

But the program was massively delayed and technology has progressed dramatically. Why bring a jet to a drone fight? Or to a laser fight? Seems obsolete.

Who says you can't replace the cockpit with a computer?

Re: Is the F-35 a Trillion-Dollar Mistake?

#19

Post by SkyMarshal »

aanm1988 wrote: post #10
sqeaky wrote: post #3

This is surprisingly complex. I expected more points to clearly lean towards it or away from it. There are cost overruns and delays, but renegotiations happened and corrected at least some of that. The plane is real and works, but has weaknesses. It has tentative bipartisan support. We built another Jack of all trades for Veitnam, the F4 phantom. Largely it was regard as a failure because it wasn't good at anything.…

> Is the F35 advanced enough that not being the best still leaves the USA with better than everyone else I thought the F-35 was never intended to be the best, but rather the best the US is willing to sell? That's kinda pedantic, but I'm actually meaning it as a question not a correction.

That's about accurate. F-35 is the best multi-role fighter the US is willing to sell to allies. The F-22 by comparison is the best air superiority fighter the US keeps to itself.

Re: Is the F-35 a Trillion-Dollar Mistake?

#20

Post by sfifs »

unabridged wrote: post #13

How useful are fighter jets? Shouldn't we be building swarms of unmanned drones instead?

Basically in any reasonably capable enemy airspace, you need to fly with emissions control - ie. no radio, no radar else passive detection systems will find, triangulate and guide a SAM on you.

If you're doing drones, this means programming fully autonomous AI to identify and kill targets - which no one quite wants to do just now. For the same reason, "swarms" are tricky since you need radio coordination. Drones have proven useful against significantly less technologically capable adverseries but don't forget the drone captured by Iran by what appears to be control signal spoofing

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