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The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

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Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#151

Post by ryandrake »

geebee wrote: post #146
ryandrake wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a shithole slate-mining town of less than 5000 people. Most of the people there couldn't even spell STEM. High school guidance counsellor was still extremely clear. "Do go to college, but for the love of god, major in Medicine, Science, or Engineering. Don't waste your time and money with anything else."

That's really interesting, and I'm not surprised to hear it. There was a study a while back concluding that it doesn't matter where you go to college - provided you major in STEM. It's a little more complicated than that (attrition rates, quality of curriculum), but overall, there is some truth to this - if you want to get a good job and keep costs down, majoring in engineering at a reputable state school can be a go…

Good points. There's definitely a "class mentality" difference. In my case, it was "engineering school is your only way out of this hole, kid. Don't fuck it up!" It also helped that I, by some miracle, had tiger parents (although not Asian). For Tommy Rockefeller III in his Connecticut private school, it's "Go study whatever you want--it doesn't matter. You were born rich and are going to stay rich no matter what you do."

I got a view of this going to a "reasonably top" (not Harvard or Wharton but close) MBA school. I had lots of classmates I'd describe as "irreversibly rich". Not bad people by any stretch, but just from a different world than I came from. The few of us with blue collar backgrounds kept to ourselves and studied our asses off. Those guys, although they studied too, also socialized and partied quite a bit more. I mean wouldn't you, if your success was a foregone conclusion? If they wanted to, they could[1] go off and direct a non-profit, or run a hedge fund, or take 5 years off to contemplate life and fish. I had to make damn sure I got some kind of job straight away so I could immediately be able to not default on $2000+ loan payments.

1: and by "could" I mean, "have the opportunity to", not "have the ability to". Hell, _I_ could run a hedge fund. Will I ever have the opportunity to? No.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#152

Post by ThrustVectoring »

stinkytaco wrote: post #149
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does college provide it, or select for it? This is extraordinarily important. If it teaches good time management skills, then we can get more of that by expanding college programs. If it merely fails out people who don't have good time management skills, then there are cheaper ways to get a piece of paper proving that the holder has good time management skills. >This is absolutely not universally true, but a higher p…

Where the overfishing analogy breaks down is that we have the power to provide enough fish. College doesn't have to be expensive. As little as 15 years ago it was quite possible to work your way through college and come out with manageable debt. Something else happened to balloon the cost of education in that time period. Perhaps the increased reliance on loans, cuts in financial aid to students and state assistance…

College costs are, IMO, entirely because student loans removed the need for colleges to compete on price. Regardless of cost and value, students could get loans to cover it. So in order to compete, institutions branched out into what's basically bling, with sports being a salient example.

There's also a fundamental economic pressure from non-education productivity. It takes just as many man-hours to teach a class, but those man-hours would go further growing potatos or making widgets.

I have a suspicion that the problem can't be supplied out of. Not everyone can have the nicest house in the neighborhood, no matter how many nice houses you build. It wasn't that long ago that high-school education or the equivalent was something that set you apart and ahead. Now it's just kind of an assumed requirement. I'm afraid that making an undergraduate degree ubiquitous would make a master's degree the new bachelor's. In some fields, this is already happening.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#153

Post by davidf18 »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #18
davidf18 wrote: post #13

A problem is that many of the higher paying jobs are in cities such as NYC, SF, LA, Boston, DC, (also London, ...) and the housing is expensive in these cities because of "rent-seeking" -- a market failure or market inefficiency caused by an politically induced scarcity of housing through zoning density restrictions. This harms renters and those starting out in life while benefiting wealthy landlords such as Presiden…

> a market failure or market inefficiency caused by an politically induced scarcity of housing through zoning density restrictions. This is true, but it's also a failure of policies that have led to the majority of job growth being in the biggest cities in the country. If we could spread things out a bit and keep smaller cities a viable place to create jobs, the bigger cities wouldn't be impacted nearly as hard.

Cities such as NYC, SF, LA, DC, Boston, London, (and region of SV)....are very special cities that are magnets of creativity and wealth creation marrying engineering and other creativity with finance. In pre-WWII, Budapest and Vienna were among these cities and outside of US & London, Tel Aviv is also one of these cities. Not only engineers and software and finance professionals but other professionals such as doctors love living in these cities for their cultural amenities. NYC is a center of Judaism and for many Jews, this is where they want to live with all of the specific Jewish cultural amenities.

This is unlikely to change. Author Richard Florida among others writes about the develop of cities.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#154

Post by davidf18 »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #18
davidf18 wrote: post #13

A problem is that many of the higher paying jobs are in cities such as NYC, SF, LA, Boston, DC, (also London, ...) and the housing is expensive in these cities because of "rent-seeking" -- a market failure or market inefficiency caused by an politically induced scarcity of housing through zoning density restrictions. This harms renters and those starting out in life while benefiting wealthy landlords such as Presiden…

> a market failure or market inefficiency caused by an politically induced scarcity of housing through zoning density restrictions. This is true, but it's also a failure of policies that have led to the majority of job growth being in the biggest cities in the country. If we could spread things out a bit and keep smaller cities a viable place to create jobs, the bigger cities wouldn't be impacted nearly as hard.

Cities such as NYC, SF, LA, DC, Boston, London, (and region of SV)....are very special cities that are magnets of creativity and wealth creation marrying engineering and other creativity with finance. In pre-WWII, Budapest and Vienna were among these cities and outside of US & London, Tel Aviv is also one of these cities. Not only engineers and software and finance professionals but other professionals such as doctors love living in these cities for their cultural amenities. NYC is a center of Judaism and for many Jews, this is where they want to live with all of the specific Jewish cultural amenities.

This is unlikely to change. Author Richard Florida among others writes about the develop of cities.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#155

Post by nercht12 »

Even STEM can be a bad investment, depending on what you do. I graduated with a degree in Chem, wanting to do nanoscale computers and -later- optical computing. Found out 3rd year that unless I got a doctorate, I'd be a glorified lab rat. What's worse is that even if I got a doctorate, I'd still be a lab rat while trying to get one and would have a sliver of a chance to get a job anyways. My choice? I graduated, but didn't do grad school. Think of that next to you wonder why STEM jobs aren't being filled. There were some redeeming measures of school. I got a minor in CS, some text on my resume that says I went to school and got good grades - the first step for many companies to even consider you - and learned about a number of really good books I might not have encountered by just randomly exploring the net. Still, I probably would've done better without school. I will now take this opportunity to mention that I'm still looking for work, albeit sunny Cal is too expensive for me to consider jobs out there.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#156

Post by fulafel »

winstonewert wrote: post #70
ep103 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a good point. Yet the entire time I'm reading it, the main thought going through my mind, is people shouldn't have to make choices like this about education. And definitely not in a democracy.

But choices like that are inevitable. There are only so many places available at the top schools. Somebody has to make the choice about which students get to go there. That somebody may be the students deciding whether the cost is worthwhile, or it may be the school deciding which students to accept, but the decision is inevitable.

The large debt is very evitable, in many countries higher education is free or negative cost (=everyone gets a student allowance). This doesn't mean top schools have unlimited admissions.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#157

Post by roymurdock »

epalmer wrote: post #136
agalarza wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry if this is too personal, but did you think your parents were blowing hot air or something? This thread has been eye-opening from the perspective of all these comments who (apparently) had negligible guidance from a group of people (parents) who absolutely need to talk about debt to their kids. Maybe a silver lining in this topic is a generation of future parents who will have better conversations with their kid…

My youngest is going to Olin college of engineering next fall and we talk about debt a lot. We had a conversation last night about debt. We are blessed that Olin is a needs based school that provides grants (debt free) for families that can't fully afford college. They want their students to have a little debt (skin in the game) but we are talking a little not a lot. We talk about personal finance, net worth, investi…

Highly recommend that your son/daughter cross register for biz classes (negotiations, basic accounting) at Babson and a liberal arts class or 2 at Wellesley in junior/senior year.

The best class I took at Babson was a combination biz/engineering course at Olin called Affordable Design and Entrepreneurship. The lead instructor, Ben Linder, is amazing.

Wrote more about the project/experience here if you're interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13312978

Olin is a great school (can't beat the price), and every student I've worked with and learned from at Olin has been great. So congrats, you should be very proud of your kid! Definitely making a smart choice.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#158

Post by smoyer »

ryandrake wrote: post #69
austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

> The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't…

I think there are a lot of interesting disciplines that make great minors but that are unlikely to allow the recipient to earn a living. If you're independently wealthy, it doesn't matter - otherwise you might find that humanities and STEM create an even stronger career.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#159

Post by randomdata »

maxxxxx wrote: post #104
jMyles wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm part of that generation and made that mistake for sure. > The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The takeaway here is, in part: don't do something just because you're told to. If our generation stops doing what we're told (which seems to be the case), then this will be a small price.

How is someone 18 years old supposed to figure out what to do? At that age I had no idea how the workplace works or how to get a career, don't event talk about a career I like. Some people have parents with insight or they just have luck but without guidance what do you do?

Growing up on the farm, I had more than a decade of workplace experience, marketable skills, and exposure to life lessons like learning how to learn by the age of 18. In fact, I started my current career when I was 17. To just start thinking about those things after the age of 18 is difficult to imagine.

What I wonder is why we find it acceptable – desirable even – to shield children under the age of 18 from the reality they will face after that age? How did we reach a point where 18 year olds find themselves in your position? Historically, my experience would have been common. I think it is a travesty so many miss out in modern times. Learning about life has proven to not be a suitable replacement for engaging in life, in my opinion.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#160

Post by maxxxxx »

randomdata wrote: post #159
maxxxxx wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is someone 18 years old supposed to figure out what to do? At that age I had no idea how the workplace works or how to get a career, don't event talk about a career I like. Some people have parents with insight or they just have luck but without guidance what do you do?

Growing up on the farm, I had more than a decade of workplace experience, marketable skills, and exposure to life lessons like learning how to learn by the age of 18. In fact, I started my current career when I was 17. To just start thinking about those things after the age of 18 is difficult to imagine. What I wonder is why we find it acceptable – desirable even – to shield children under the age of 18 from the real…

I think they shouldn't be sheltered from learning but we also shouldn't rub it in when they make a mistake. With the high cost of college I would argue making mistakes has become much more expensive than it used to be.
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