Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#141

Post by Muromec » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 10:16 AM UTC

prostoalex wrote: post #23

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #16

If the type of development work you're doing can be easily done remotely, then there is a good chance it can be done much cheaper by a fantastic developer in Ukraine, or India, or China, or some country where wages are a lot cheaper than US or England or Canada. If, however, the type of work you're doing benefits from face-to-face interactions (i.e. quick iterations with lots of feedback from users, marketing and pro…

If you're a fantastic developer in Ukraine, India or China and have very limited needs (compared to a guy with a family and kids), your disposable monthly income net of taxes, rent and commute expenses is still likely to be higher in Silicon Valley than Ukraine, India or China. A rational decision then would be to move to Silicon Valley arbitraging the costs as much as you can (living with roommates, commuting by Cal…

>If you're a fantastic developer in Ukraine, India or China and have very limited needs (compared to a guy with a family and kids), your disposable monthly income net of taxes, rent and commute expenses is still likely to be higher in Silicon Valley than Ukraine, India or China.

No it would not. Nothing can beat sub 500 USD apartment, 5% tax rate and 3 cents for subway ticket

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#142

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 10:17 AM UTC

georgiecasey wrote: post #138

adamors wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving to the US is not a rational decision in 2017.

take a random sample of 100 devs in Ukraine and India and offer them a green card to the US of A. how many do you think would take it? and for people who wouldn't, how many do you think would cite Trump as their reason?

[deleted]

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#143

Post by frant-hartm » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 10:20 AM UTC

reason_police wrote: post #112

apexalpha wrote: post #82

> it was always a country to keep offshore companies/accounts, so every rich developer in ex-USSR already been there and knew the place, but since 2014 it started to make sense to move physically as well I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that since 3 years ago Cyprus (among others) 'sells' EU permanent residency permits to rich foreigners. You can imagin that an EU permanent residency permit, allowing you…

> I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that since 3 years ago Cyprus (among others) 'sells' EU permanent residency permits to rich foreigners. You know, the solution to "problems" like that is to abolish visas altogether. A visa is essentially a permission to exist in a certain geographical area. Why exactly do you need one? Yes I know governments won't let you in/out without one, but what sense does it make…

>Why exactly do you need one?

This is one of primary functions of any (democratic) government - to protect its people.

People don't want anyone to be able to come and settle as their neighbour - for both rational and irrational reasons.

And governments must listen to their people, because if they don't (like in case of EU/mainly Germany during last migrant crisis) people start having feelings that the government doesn't care about them, which in turn creates room for extreme populist and extremist parties.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#144

Post by PeterisP » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 10:26 AM UTC

reason_police wrote: post #112

apexalpha wrote: post #82

> it was always a country to keep offshore companies/accounts, so every rich developer in ex-USSR already been there and knew the place, but since 2014 it started to make sense to move physically as well I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that since 3 years ago Cyprus (among others) 'sells' EU permanent residency permits to rich foreigners. You can imagin that an EU permanent residency permit, allowing you…

> I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that since 3 years ago Cyprus (among others) 'sells' EU permanent residency permits to rich foreigners. You know, the solution to "problems" like that is to abolish visas altogether. A visa is essentially a permission to exist in a certain geographical area. Why exactly do you need one? Yes I know governments won't let you in/out without one, but what sense does it make…

Visas exist because a group of people with self-determination, i.e., a country, have decided that it's in their best interest to require certain conditions to allow others to travel.

The moral justification is very simple - the people of Thailand (I hope the Thai people will pardon me from using them as an example, going on from the parent post ) get to make the rules of what happens in Thailand (e.g. they have sovereignty) and you don't. There can be international agreements where countries agree to give up part of sovereignty and agree to be limit their actions, but the default situation is that they literally get to make up laws in their borders, and existing in their borders means that you'll be held to these laws, by force if necessary, no matter if you agree or not.

They don't have to let you across the border if they don't want to, and they don't need a justification to do so - that is their inherent right. If they want to let anyone in, no questions asked, that is their right too. And if they choose to allow some people under some conditions - same thing. You're not part of their social contract, whatever that is, and you have no right to be treated equally unless they choose to - they can and will have preferential treatment for themselves.

From your comment "Or did you perhaps unwittingly sign a new one with Thailand, by entering their territory?" is probably the closest one to truth, but it's not unwittingly - the tourist visa explicitly has a number of terms and conditions; and you either intentionally accept them or don't get the visa. With this visa, they are offering a very particular social contract for you, and it's up to you to take it or leave it.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#145

Post by henrikschroder » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 10:29 AM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #38

I used to live in SF. It was exciting, but also shitty. I felt connected and alive, which was great, but also drained of resources, which really sucked. Oh, and there were 6 of us, in a 3 bedroom apartment. I had the living room. Yea. I lasted 3 years, until I met my wife, and by then I was ready to move. We did. Now, life in the suburbs, is slow. I feel somewhat disconnected and like I don't really belong to this co…

> Oh, and there were 6 of us, in a 3 bedroom apartment.

This is such a weird American phenomenon, the whole roommate thing. What on earth can make adults choose to share their home with a stranger? Why isn't there intense pressure for building many small apartments, rather than building larger apartments that are meant for roommates? Is it connected to the equally weird college dorm roommate system?

Why are people accepting a situation where they live together with someone they don't like? It's such an obvious recipe for misery!

Who perpetuates this system?

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#146

Post by adrianratnapala » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 10:33 AM UTC

anovikov wrote: post #24

LOL it is the other way around, cities become most expensive because developers flock there and spend cash. This happens now in Limassol, Cyprus: crowds of developers, most having their own startups, started to flock there since 3 years ago from Russia, Belarus and Ukraine - it was always a country to keep offshore companies/accounts, so every rich developer in ex-USSR already been there and knew the place, but since…

My town, Sydney is not expensive because there is a handful of Googlers like me live around here. Google here because Sydney is the kind of place that people pay lots of money to stay in. And so I have to pay too much rent.

I love Sydney, it is (spiritually) my home town. But I wish the company would move to Wagga Wagga. I mean the place even looks like Mountain View.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#147

Post by branchless » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 10:35 AM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #145

rubicon33 wrote: post #38

I used to live in SF. It was exciting, but also shitty. I felt connected and alive, which was great, but also drained of resources, which really sucked. Oh, and there were 6 of us, in a 3 bedroom apartment. I had the living room. Yea. I lasted 3 years, until I met my wife, and by then I was ready to move. We did. Now, life in the suburbs, is slow. I feel somewhat disconnected and like I don't really belong to this co…

> Oh, and there were 6 of us, in a 3 bedroom apartment. This is such a weird American phenomenon, the whole roommate thing. What on earth can make adults choose to share their home with a stranger? Why isn't there intense pressure for building many small apartments, rather than building larger apartments that are meant for roommates? Is it connected to the equally weird college dorm roommate system? Why are people ac…

Why: because of the financialization of housing.

Why accept it? Westerners don't understand how their economies work to pass surplus value to the non-productive.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#148

Post by johnomarkid » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 10:36 AM UTC

zabana wrote: post #83

soufron wrote: post #39

Which leads me to learn that the 6 “Alpha Regions” of the world are SF, LA, NYC, Boston, Toronto, London, Paris. Even if it’s not perceived to be at the center of the technological metamorphose, Paris is still being seen as a place where you can get stuff done. It’s also one of the places in the world where you will get the most infrastructure, meaning technological infrastructure but also political, democratic, soci…

Berlin and Barcelona are way better places than Paris. Unless you're into old cities filled with pretiensious people.

Paris is also good if you're into smog. +1 for Berlin.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#149

Post by branchless » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 10:38 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #5

So I live in Boston, and bought a condo in the slums as soon as I could. Not the worst slum (Green St., near Hatoff's gas station for those who know JP), but 50 yards from a halfway house, the suboxone at Arbour counseling and the needles near it, Mattapan is pretty close. 5 years later the condo is up 40%, Hatoff's gas is now being destroyed for (I assume?) more condos, a brewpub is opening pretty close, and familie…

For every person like you someone buys in a neighborhood that never gets better. Some get worse. It's not a money train.

I think you are bragging and that you don't understand the wider system, nor where your gains come from.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#150

Post by gsch » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 10:42 AM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #145

rubicon33 wrote: post #38

I used to live in SF. It was exciting, but also shitty. I felt connected and alive, which was great, but also drained of resources, which really sucked. Oh, and there were 6 of us, in a 3 bedroom apartment. I had the living room. Yea. I lasted 3 years, until I met my wife, and by then I was ready to move. We did. Now, life in the suburbs, is slow. I feel somewhat disconnected and like I don't really belong to this co…

> Oh, and there were 6 of us, in a 3 bedroom apartment. This is such a weird American phenomenon, the whole roommate thing. What on earth can make adults choose to share their home with a stranger? Why isn't there intense pressure for building many small apartments, rather than building larger apartments that are meant for roommates? Is it connected to the equally weird college dorm roommate system? Why are people ac…

On the other hand, I think there are really good reasons for co-living beyond saving a bit of money. There's a great community aspect to it as well. On the occasions where I've lived by myself, I've mostly ended up bored and sedentary, whereas in co-living arrangements, there's always people to chat or cook with, hang out, etc.

Of course, I'm still in my late 20s, so take this with a massive grain of salt. But if my salary doubled tomorrow, I still wouldn't give up my flatshare. I don't see myself wanting to leave it for another several years.