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Android overtakes Windows as the internet’s most used operating system

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Re: Android overtakes Windows as the internet’s most used operating system

#141

Post by wutbrodo »

ryukafalz wrote: post #138
cbhl wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paraphrase the question in the reverse and you get your answer: What makes this possible on Windows desktops? Stable binary driver ABI. Hardware monoculture. Expensive driver certification program. Letting hardware vendors release binary drivers without releasing the corresponding sources. An opt-out automatic update mechanism. (Disclaimer: I work at Google, but not on the Android team.)

I think you're overstating the value of most of those things, because it's also possible on Linux desktops too. You can take a typical off-the-shelf x86 laptop, pop a disk in, and install Linux on it. IMO the key point out of the things you mentioned is the hardware monoculture, because that definitely does help people get Linux running (and keep it running) on new hardware. I'm skeptical about most of the others.

Your example actually helps prove the point: the fact that Linux can use some of these advantages but not others lines up pretty neatly with the fact that it's generally harder to get Linux running on a given system than it is Windows. I say this as someone whose used Linux and thinks that practically everyone could benefit from giving Linux a try as their primary personal computer (with the always-major caveat that you have to be careful about hardware purchases and/or have someone knowledgeable set it up).

Re: Android overtakes Windows as the internet’s most used operating system

#142

Post by codys »

digi_owl wrote: post #10
JBReefer wrote: post #2

On one hand, this is a truly incredible accomplishment for Google, and in so little time! On the other, it's sort of amazing this hadn't happened already - so, so many people in the developing world are entirely reliant on mobile, and mostly use low-end Android phones. I use a Moto G4 and the experience is shockingly good for a device that costs less than a bar tab. It's no wonder that low-end Android's are winning,…

AOSP may be open, but on its own it is a skeleton of a OS. Most of the magic in Android today is housed in Play Services, one of two things Google can push an update for (the other being the Play store app) without any dialog or concent from the device user.

> one of two things Google can push an update for [...] without any dialog or concent

One of the two things Google _chooses_ to do this for. Nothing prevents them from doing the same thing for other pieces of software, except, perhaps, their own policy.

Re: Android overtakes Windows as the internet’s most used operating system

#143

Post by ocdtrekkie »

bitmapbrother wrote: post #125
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This excuse completely ignores the fact that through the MADA contract, Google controls all of the manufacturers and defines whether or not they are allowed to sell Android phones, effectively. And that the OS is designed, by Google, to require the manufacturer to distribute the update, rather than, as with... pretty much all other OSes, the software developer being responsible for updating their own software. Google…

Google does not control whether OEM's are allowed to sell Android phones. Does Google control the sale of all of those Chinese branded phones that don't ship with Google Play Services? Or how about the Blackphone or the Copperhead phone? The MADA simply states what is required if your phone wants to ship with Google Play Services and Apps. >Google would like you to blame the manufacturer, but you need to realize the…

1. Note my use of the word "effectively". Unless you're in China, where Google does not operate, there is no such thing as Android without Google Play Services. (Attempts to sell Android devices without Google Play outside of China have, for the most part[1], been dismal failures.) And Google has to give their written approval for the release of each and every device or software update of Android with Google Play Services.

2. Google created the OS. In fact, OEMs are forbidden from forking Android, and therefore, cannot "roll their own OS" from Android, without violating their agreement with Google. Yes, they sprinkle some of their own apps and drivers in, but this is a design flaw in Android: Google needs to be updating their own software independently of manufacturer-specific components.

I know for a fact you and I have had this discussion before.

[1]Someone will mention the Kindle. The Kindle does not compete with Google products, as it is perceived in the market as an e-reader more than a "tablet". And Google barely even does tablets anymore anyways.

Re: Android overtakes Windows as the internet’s most used operating system

#144

Post by hrydgard »

peterwwillis wrote: post #118
TruthSHIFT wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize that this has nothing to do with your larger point, but what technology do you consider to be superior to the original playstation? My understanding is that the PS1 was a significant technological leap.

3DO, Jaguar, PC-FX, Saturn, N64 were all superior technologies, and PlayStation absolutely trounced them in popularity for 10 years. Initially both the Genesis and SNES outsold all the 5th gen platforms, but eventually their perceived better quality and an increased availability of platform titles took hold.

N64 arguably yes, Saturn .. depends, but a bit of a mess. Jaguar and 3DO? No way, PSX was overwhelmingly better hardware than either of those. No idea about PC-FX though.

Re: Android overtakes Windows as the internet’s most used operating system

#145

Post by hermitdev »

cbhl wrote: post #105
alnitak wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me ask a (potentially) very stupid question here: What prevents doing the same on phones? What would make a phone hardware able to install anything that compiles to its CPU architecture the same way a PC can?

Paraphrase the question in the reverse and you get your answer: What makes this possible on Windows desktops? Stable binary driver ABI. Hardware monoculture. Expensive driver certification program. Letting hardware vendors release binary drivers without releasing the corresponding sources. An opt-out automatic update mechanism. (Disclaimer: I work at Google, but not on the Android team.)

Hardware monoculture? Surely you must be joking. There are only a few to several dozen current Android phone models being sold at a given time. There are thousands upon thousands of PC models being sold among major manufacturers. This doesnt even begin to account for home builds or customizations. There is a very slim chamce that anyone has the exact same hardware config as my PC, yet Windows still has to work on it. Sure, vast majority of Windows is x86/x64, but that doesn't mean it is a hardware monoculture.

Re: Android overtakes Windows as the internet’s most used operating system

#146

Post by pwnna »

marcosdumay wrote: post #84
barrkel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you have control over which patches you accept, you've created an exponential explosion in the testing state space. That may be even worse for security, never mind reliability.

Still, somehow Linux distros are reasonably safe but Android is broken.

Not sure about the linux distro being safe part. Linux desktop distros are also riddled with vulnerabilities that no one bothered to look. This is along with the bad design of the desktop in the first place as there're no isolation between apps and so forth.

Example: https://arstechnica.com/security/2016/12/fedora-and-ubuntu-0...

Android on the other hand, has isolation mechanism built in as the central thesis of its apps system. Additionally, it also has some additional layers on top.

Unfortunately since nothing gets updated it maybe all moot, but I don't think somehow Linux distros are more secure.

Re: Android overtakes Windows as the internet’s most used operating system

#147

Post by WorldMaker »

bitmapbrother wrote: post #123
pjmlp wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely it is their fault, because Google is the very first to give the example of selling devices more expensive than desktop computers, above the minimum wage in many countries, with updates limited to 2 years (+1 for some fixes). As for the other OEMs, there is this thing called contracts and legal obligations. No updates, no access to Google services from invalid devices. It is as easy as that, if Google actually…

Stop being disingenuous on purpose. A Google device receives security updates for 36 months. Your "+1 for some fixes" comment implies that you only get "some" of the security updates when, in fact, you get all of security updates.

Isn't 36 months 2 + 1 years?

Also, the point is still valid that 36 months (or 3 years) is still rather short security lifetime for a device. At some point (presumably soon now that carriers are dropping most device subsidies) the 2 year replacement scheme of mobile devices stops being sustainable and you do start to have to deal with the long tail of people sticking to 5-15 year old hardware devices.

Google seems to have little interest in anything beyond the short horizon and that security tech debt is going to come due.

Re: Android overtakes Windows as the internet’s most used operating system

#148

Post by apexalpha »

_0w8t wrote: post #133
technofiend wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that even google-sourced devices have a very short lifecycle for OS and security updates. Google seem to be running under the assumption any phone over 12 months old is reaching the end of its usable life.

An ARM Chromebook that I bought more than 4 years ago still receives updates.

So does my 9 year old HP Elitebook running Win10 now. The problem is that vendors are allowed a say in the matter. If MS used the Android model I'm sure PCs wouldn't be update either.

Re: Android overtakes Windows as the internet’s most used operating system

#149

Post by plandis »

_wmd wrote: post #25

I guess this means we can officially stop hating on Microsoft for having such a lax attitude towards security, considering their last OS to suffer from that attitude was released 16 years ago, and it accounts for less than 3% of present day traffic according to statcounter.com Meanwhile according to the same stats, Android sits around 37.9%, and I have to wonder just how many of those devices are still impacted by fo…

You sound like someone that either works at Microsoft or has a large financial interest in them.

Re: Android overtakes Windows as the internet’s most used operating system

#150

Post by ksk »

rtkwe wrote: post #26
digi_owl wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AOSP may be open, but on its own it is a skeleton of a OS. Most of the magic in Android today is housed in Play Services, one of two things Google can push an update for (the other being the Play store app) without any dialog or concent from the device user.

That's kind of a demon of necessity though. Originally they did things more in the base OS but getting manufacturers to actually push updates was horrible. Now they can do bug, (minor) security and feature updates through a side channel that bypasses the carriers who don't want to update their older phones when people might go buy new ones instead.

Well, for one they got manufacturers to adopt Google branding for Android phones, but then we're led to believe that getting them to update on time was hard. But from Google's POV, the only "necessity" here is that Google gets your data and tracks you.
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