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A world without retirement?

theguardian.com

151–160 of 169 posts

Re: A world without retirement?

#151

Unfortunately this is economic bullshit. They are taking a description of an economy that requires a constantly increasing workforce and increasing productivity and then apply the most obvious, ill-thought out short-term fix, and actually expect it to work despite violating the basic assumptions. Population growth stopped 15 years ago. Normally those people that weren't born would be entering the workforce in about 5…

> But productivity (amount of $ per hour of work) has been dropping for 30 years, What, what? Except for some years during the 2008~ financial crisis, productivity has been rising steadily all over the developed world. https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PDYGTH In fact it would be very odd if it wasn't rising; it would mean all of the aggregate investment in machinery and office automation during the last 3…

If you take a 1980s inflation measure, or the big mac index, and extend it out, it turns negative in 1984 (87 for big mac) and stays negative. If you take government figures for inflation, yes it stays positive.

But unless you agree that since 1990 people "deserve" less housing (and therefore don't see the less square footage for their rental/mortgage dollar as any kind of loss), less fuel, a lot less education. Then in 2000 it gets lowered again. We've gotten to the point that they call the current measure "PCE deflator". So unless you agree people now deserve less of essentially any and all capital goods, ...

This is the issue with government measures. Their claim is that they're just adjusting to what they're seeing, and the "underlying value" is the same. Yet when I offer an economist to provide him with a 10 year supply of tobacco if he pays for my PhD ... no takers (and that's generous, in 1980 it was just 6.8 years of tobacco for a PhD, and I think that included housing for 5 years). That's an investment yielding over 5% ! No takers. But ... I thought the underlying value was the same ? So I'm offering you something of what you claim is greater value for something of less value, and yet you don't take the deal ? Obviously something is wrong here.

They have an excuse, obviously. The reasoning goes like this: more inflation, without higher wages - people spend less measured in goods (in a few years even in dollars) - therefore the inflation measure must be broken (doesn't represent a realistic basket of goods anymore type argument) - inflation measure gets replaced with something with less of whatever got expensive, and less in general - goto 1. Result: inflation measure gets deflated by ~5% every 5 years. Substract that and productivity growth has been negative for decades. This matches people's experiences much better than the figures, so I'm not really willing to accept the PCE deflator.

So these official figures neglect to state that "real" is calculated using about a different inflation measurement every 2 columns. Not totally non-overlapping, perhaps, but different. And despite the repeated claims that they're just changing it to reflect what people buy it always changes in the same way ...

Needless to say, for specific inflation measures, productivity is disastrous. For instance, take square footage real estate per hour worked. Gold in kg per hour worked. Those sorts of measures. They look really, really, really bad.

And for what should be the real inflation measure, the total amount of money, which is total credit + M1 supply, and calculate what portion of "the world economy" you get for an hour of work and see it evolve over time ... blimey.

Re: A world without retirement?

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems extraordinarily unfair to the developing countries, especially if it becomes something that people do en masse.

Developing countries generally have very strict immigration requirements. It's not like Western Europe where you can literally walk in with no papers and get welfare. Trust me, they're not going to end up paying for anything old retired westerners need.

> literally walk in with no papers and get welfare

This isn't true of course, unless you're referring to the tiny amount given to asylum seekers?

If you think it is true, name the country and the specific benefits available to people with no residence and no visa.

Re: A world without retirement?

#153
post #33

I'm currently writing a list of things to consider when creating a UBI scheme (concerns that I often don't see addressed), and this is an easy way to illustrate one of them. One simple way to implement "single payer" healthcare in the US would be to slowly expand the medicare (US program for people 65 and older) coverage by moving the age lower every year. Very similarly, a simple way to incrementally implement UBI w…

If you're asking how to fund it in a non-redistributive manner, since the blood has been squeezed from the stone: We have a peculiar set of beneficiaries of our economic inflation system. In theory we could select poor people as the winners of economic inflation. In practice it would result in a civil war because the current wealthy and powerful beneficiaries of the existing inflation based economic system won't acce…

This is the most racist thing I've seen on HN all week.

Re: A world without retirement?

#154
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demographics are destiny and if the population of a country is replaced, then it seems a tautology that the new country will resemble the replacements rather than the replaced in many ways. I wasn't being facetious that there is in fact a retirement program in Zimbabwe, and listening to Rhodesians in the 1950s talking about their Rhodesian retirement plan for the then very distant 2010s is likely to be as pointless o…

"demographics are destiny", what is that? i believe i've heard it a few times recently. sounds like a new-fashioned "white is right", with the benefit of sounding like something intelligent to an imbecile. but if demographics is destiny, then it's good more brown people are moving into europe. twice in the last century, with so many white people on the subcontinent, europe dissolved into mass barbarism and pulled muc…

> so many white people on the subcontinent, europe dissolved into mass barbarism

Part of the Nazi ideology was the idea that Slavs were ethnically inferior and therefore the Nazis felt justified in trying to slaughter them and take their land. In just the same way that colonists had taken Africa, America and Australia. It's just fortunate for them that the Russians had tanks whereas the American Indians or Belgian Congolese etc didn't.

Re: A world without retirement?

#155
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even here in the supposedly socialist paradise of Norway capital gains are more lightly taxed than earnings. My marginal tax rate on earnings is 50% but interest or income from mutual funds is taxed at 27%. At least it was last time I looked, not much I can do about either of those numbers so I don't think about them any more.

This is probably wayy off topic, but not having met real life earning Norwegians (traveling students don't count): how does it feel to be giving away half of what you earn to the government? I'm trying to phrase this question as blandly as possible; don't mean to be snarky or anything. My own political philosophy has been migrating from something far-right to more center, but this is one issue that does bother me ver…

Remember, though, that 50% is the marginal tax rate. I don't know the tax brackets in Norway, but only income over X amount will be taxed at that rate, the first X will have a different (series of) lower rates, and generally the first Y amount has 0% tax, for some small-ish Y. This means that his amortized tax rate is less that 50%, maybe even much less if income is only a small amount over the X threshold for 50% tax.

Re: A world without retirement?

#156
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd give UBI to those least able to work and generate an income.

They don't need an income; they have paid-off houses worth $1.2m that they picked up in 1972 for $100k.

This is a gross generalization. Not everyone was a solidly middle class worker for their entire lifetime, and not everyone thought to save for retirement. Before you studied it, did you have any idea at all how expensive retirement would be?

Think about it: If someone didn't save their whole life because they assumed social security would provide for a good life, but then they discover that SS hasn't been increasing much at all and the quality of life SS provides is terrible, what are they supposed to do? Suffer? Just because a portion of their generation saved?

Re: A world without retirement?

#157
post #105

For those who perceive such issues as likely in their future, for whatever reason, I would recommend an alternate strategy of becoming familiar with the social, cultural and legal ramifications of living in or retiring to a developing country. This can be a very effective means to mitigate costs and is widely used by the French (eg. large numbers move to Tunisia for months of the year), and in South and Southeast Asi…

What happens to those people if the dollar plummets in value compared to native currency?

This is actually the same question as "what happens if inflation?". Fundamentally it's a big problem with defined-contribution systems: what you want is a life denominated in "2040 dollars", paid for in "2017 dollars", but in the absence of a time arbitrage machine all you can do is pay in and wait.

(Note that $ collapse is much less likely than local currency collapse for pretty much everything except the Swiss Franc)

Re: A world without retirement?

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Retirement is an entitlement pyramid, that means, people pay the government for it to take care of older participants This is news to those who retire and live on investment income.

Investment income depends on a functioning, growing economy. Even just maintaining stored retirement wealth depends on this. Think about prices for services when there are large numbers of rich retired people with needs, but few young people willing to provide them.

It does not depend on a functioning, growing economy at all. TIPS and Series I savings bonds require the U.S. Govt to not default on its obligations. They preserve purchasing power.

Re: A world without retirement?

#159
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Retirement is an entitlement pyramid, that means, people pay the government for it to take care of older participants This is news to those who retire and live on investment income.

In the US at least, almost half of elderly would be living in poverty but for social security. Most are not retiring and living off of investment income.

That does not detract from the truthfulness of my statement.

Re: A world without retirement?

#160
> If we can no longer rely on immigration to fill the gaps, employers will have to shed their prejudices, workplaces will have to be adapted, and social services will have to step in to provide the care that ageing people can no longer give their grandchildren, ageing spouses or parents if they remain in the workforce.

But you can still rely on immigration, just not out of control immigration.

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