Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the most basic of subsistence > payments, not something we would > want seniors to retire with The full UK pension is £119.30 per week, unemployment benefit (JSA) is: £73.10.
Wow that's nothing. We have state government workers in California getting 90% of their highest salary as long as they live. And some even double dip.
A world without retirement?
141–150 of 169 posts
Re: A world without retirement?
#142Unfortunately this is economic bullshit. They are taking a description of an economy that requires a constantly increasing workforce and increasing productivity and then apply the most obvious, ill-thought out short-term fix, and actually expect it to work despite violating the basic assumptions. Population growth stopped 15 years ago. Normally those people that weren't born would be entering the workforce in about 5…
What, what? Except for some years during the 2008~ financial crisis, productivity has been rising steadily all over the developed world.
https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PDYGTH
In fact it would be very odd if it wasn't rising; it would mean all of the aggregate investment in machinery and office automation during the last 30 years was useless.
Of course, productivity's rate of growth itself isn't always rising, but that's a different story.
Re: A world without retirement?
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe I did not phrase it clearly enough, but I know that there is plenty of work, just not paid work. That's why I used the word "jobs". Companies leave the demand for mental health on the table, because the metally ill don't have anything to offer to them in exchange. But I certainly hope that the future is so bright as you describe it.
It's already paid work for some fraction of forward thinking people - a friend has three income-generating houses, the first of which was financed by virtual coal trading in RuneScape in the early 00's.
Sure, but this is not work that is useful or necessary to society. It is only possible for some people to get rich by skimming off the top of useless activity given that other people are producing food, electricity, maintaining infrastructure, providing healthcare etc.
Re: A world without retirement?
#144For those who perceive such issues as likely in their future, for whatever reason, I would recommend an alternate strategy of becoming familiar with the social, cultural and legal ramifications of living in or retiring to a developing country. This can be a very effective means to mitigate costs and is widely used by the French (eg. large numbers move to Tunisia for months of the year), and in South and Southeast Asi…
Re: A world without retirement?
#145For those who perceive such issues as likely in their future, for whatever reason, I would recommend an alternate strategy of becoming familiar with the social, cultural and legal ramifications of living in or retiring to a developing country. This can be a very effective means to mitigate costs and is widely used by the French (eg. large numbers move to Tunisia for months of the year), and in South and Southeast Asi…
That seems extraordinarily unfair to the developing countries, especially if it becomes something that people do en masse.
Re: A world without retirement?
#146Where do the jobs for the elderly come from, if even young, healthy people are gradually priced out of their jobs by technology and automation? Right now, good jobs are replaced by bad, underpaid ones. Desperate people are serving burritos to a smaller group of people who are lucky to have the skills necessary in this time of transition. All of them work to aggregate productive capital in the hands of the very few. I…
What is money, really? Money, today, is not in sync with a world made of matter and with the needs of a changing world. Your city needs to build a new bridge, a subway station or a new hospital? It has the engineers, the architects, the workers, the machines and the materials needed, you can begin construction right now, but if there is no "money", nothing will get done. How absurd is that? I just came back from the…
There is no way to "save" money for the retirement, without also making sure the economy fares well as you age. If your country's economy does not produce anything at the point of retirement (and no other country is sending you their products, either forced, because your society projects military power, or freely, because their society thinks it's inhuman for your population to suffer), your saved currency is worthless.
Re: A world without retirement?
#147Where do the jobs for the elderly come from, if even young, healthy people are gradually priced out of their jobs by technology and automation? Right now, good jobs are replaced by bad, underpaid ones. Desperate people are serving burritos to a smaller group of people who are lucky to have the skills necessary in this time of transition. All of them work to aggregate productive capital in the hands of the very few. I…
> I think whoever projects 40 years into the future, and sees no need to mention the words "UBI" or "property tax", is in for a surprise Sorry, but robbing Peter to pay Paul does not strike me as a viable long term strategy either. Much like the current brain drain from other countries to the West, the reverse could easily occur; the talented and wealthy could leave for other countries and find success there. A saner…
Of course that's not a viable long term strategy. The viable long term strategy is Peter giving away decent food and shelter to Paul freely.
The smart Peters of the world do that already, because they know: if we ever reach the point where a majority of Pauls need to rob Peters for food and shelter, they might not stop at food and shelter alone.
> ...to spread out employment among more people
I'm with you here. Whatever is left in terms of human employment, it better be distributed as wide as possible.
Re: A world without retirement?
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even here in the supposedly socialist paradise of Norway capital gains are more lightly taxed than earnings. My marginal tax rate on earnings is 50% but interest or income from mutual funds is taxed at 27%. At least it was last time I looked, not much I can do about either of those numbers so I don't think about them any more.
This is probably wayy off topic, but not having met real life earning Norwegians (traveling students don't count): how does it feel to be giving away half of what you earn to the government? I'm trying to phrase this question as blandly as possible; don't mean to be snarky or anything. My own political philosophy has been migrating from something far-right to more center, but this is one issue that does bother me ver…
I don't mind it because:
1. I get great services for my tax money (health services practically free, good transit, good schools, higher education is free to cheap, daycare/kindergarten is so cheap as to be basically free). I was paying a bit less taxes when we lived in Israel but ALL public services were worse in a greater margin than the difference in taxes.
I recently had to go through some fairly major health related treatment and both the treatment and substantial hospital stay were practically free of charge, I didn't have to think about the financial aspect of it at all (despite being self-employed).
2. even tho i worked hard to get to where I am I still enjoyed a great deal of privilege: i grew up to middle-class parents who taught me that education is important, my family helped support me through college, I had role models of succesful people around me as a child, I grew up in a relatively safe and nurturing environment, etc.
I am sure an ethnic minority growing up to working-poor parents in a backwater periphery would have a much harder time achieving what I did or even knowing what to achieve, and yet it is no fault of their own that they were born to such circumstances. So I don't mind funding public schools/healthcare/infrastructure/welfare to make sure these kids get at least the basics at a level closer to mine, and are more likely to get ahead in life instead of being trapped in generational-poverty.
maybe the issue is that you don't feel your government is spending tax money wisely? IMO the solution there is to replace the government not reduce taxes.
having experienced both systems for many years it's obvious to me the welfare state gave me much better quality of life & safety, despite being a well-earning software developer who pay a lot more into the system than what I (explicitly) take out of it.
Re: A world without retirement?
#149Good writeup but it talks about a symptom, not the cause. Governments and people have been living on credit for decades. Governments borrow from retirement funds to meet current obligations. Many people have failed to save enough, or even worse have large debt.
Re: A world without retirement?
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think his point is that civilization is based on the principle of not letting people fend for themselves (e.g.: through public works like sewage systems), and that this naturally extends to retirement pensions.
The point is that civilisation is nothing else than working together as a society. The retirement system is not philantrophy, it's retributions for those who spent a good part of their life as a cog in the machine . And it's not like the retired receive their pensions ex nihilo, they pay in advance through the social security cuts (1). We teach our children to become a part of the civilisation and take care of them u…