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Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

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Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#51

Post by moomin »

gonehome wrote: post #23
sfilargi wrote: post #20

As a mere average user of computer languages, every time I play around with Go I start wondering how a language like this became so popular. It feels like it was invented in a universe where Haskell, OCaml, Erlang, Smalltalk, Lisp and so many more languages and research in languages never happened.

Sometimes I think the syntactical difference of functional languages alone is the reason they're unpopular. Iterative languages seem to match more closely how people speak/think in verbal language.

It's a pity it's hard to be precise in verbal communication without resorting to talking like a functional programming language.

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#52

Post by bitwize »

eternalban wrote: post #43

Not sure why Ada is not taking off these days. It is mature and has all the safety and concurrency bells and whistles: http://www.adacore.com/uploads_gems/07_safe_secure_ada_2005_... https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming/Tasking http://courses.cs.vt.edu/cs5204/sp99/Overheads/6UP/6UPCSPand...

+1 for Ada. Rust is basically hipster-compatible Ada, which explains why Rust will be adopted and Ada will not.

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#53

Post by SomeStupidPoint »

eternalban wrote: post #43

Not sure why Ada is not taking off these days. It is mature and has all the safety and concurrency bells and whistles: http://www.adacore.com/uploads_gems/07_safe_secure_ada_2005_... https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming/Tasking http://courses.cs.vt.edu/cs5204/sp99/Overheads/6UP/6UPCSPand...

I mean, isn't SPARK basically meant for high assurance things (like Tor should be)?

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#54

Post by rebelwebmaster »

wklm wrote: post #8
najati83 wrote: post #2

This is exciting not only because of the Tor project itself but because this will set an example for other projects to follow.

This creates also an opportunity to engage Mozilla into contributing

Note that Mozilla is already working with Tor developers to get more of their patches upstreamed into Firefox to ease their maintenance burden.

https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-heart-firefox

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#55

Post by bluejekyll »

eternalban wrote: post #43

Not sure why Ada is not taking off these days. It is mature and has all the safety and concurrency bells and whistles: http://www.adacore.com/uploads_gems/07_safe_secure_ada_2005_... https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming/Tasking http://courses.cs.vt.edu/cs5204/sp99/Overheads/6UP/6UPCSPand...

1) Two words: "begin" and "end";

2) Unix, C is so fundamental to building software, that I think any language that doesn't share syntax with it is doomed. Having a common syntax helps in learning new languages, IMO, and can also be a launching point for differing semantics...

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#56

Post by donatj »

gonehome wrote: post #23
sfilargi wrote: post #20

As a mere average user of computer languages, every time I play around with Go I start wondering how a language like this became so popular. It feels like it was invented in a universe where Haskell, OCaml, Erlang, Smalltalk, Lisp and so many more languages and research in languages never happened.

Sometimes I think the syntactical difference of functional languages alone is the reason they're unpopular. Iterative languages seem to match more closely how people speak/think in verbal language.

I agree completely. I recently went to an Elm workshop and while I found it very interesting, the Haskell syntax just didn't agree with me.

I want more enforced required clarity. I compared it at the time to writing English without any punctuation, you can do it but it makes comprehension much more difficult.

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#57

Post by im_down_w_otp »

ASinclair wrote: post #31
sfilargi wrote: post #20

As a mere average user of computer languages, every time I play around with Go I start wondering how a language like this became so popular. It feels like it was invented in a universe where Haskell, OCaml, Erlang, Smalltalk, Lisp and so many more languages and research in languages never happened.

> As a mere average user of computer languages, every time I play around with Go I start wondering how a language like this became so popular. You can pick it up in a weekend. A lower entry bar means more people will try it out. > It feels like it was invented in a universe where Haskell, OCaml, Erlang, Smalltalk, Lisp and so many more languages and research in languages never happened. It was developed in a large en…

So was Erlang. The language, the runtime, and the standard library were all purpose-built together to solve a real world problem... to build fault-tolerant, distributed network applications.

Which makes Go's rapid popularity as a language for solving the same problem even more peculiar. Especially since Go's surrounding tracing, debugging, and online code swapping facilities are so much worse.

I'm sure some component of that is Ericsson's complete lack of interest in evangelism and Erlang Solution's apparent lack of capability to effectively evangelize, but it still seems like Go isn't so much filling a void as it is being better at attracting an ecosystem that delights in reinventing a particular set of wheels.

Java was very much the same way for a very long time.

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#58

Post by nickpsecurity »

sfilargi wrote: post #20

As a mere average user of computer languages, every time I play around with Go I start wondering how a language like this became so popular. It feels like it was invented in a universe where Haskell, OCaml, Erlang, Smalltalk, Lisp and so many more languages and research in languages never happened.

It was intended to be a simple language. Each of the three authors had to agree on every feature (lowest, common denominator). One made C, one worked on Java, and one did an innovative language for Plan 9. Two of those languages ignored as much of the kind of work you described as possible. Something like Go is a natural result in terms of feature choices for the language itself.

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#59

Post by eternalban »

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #53
eternalban wrote: post #43

Not sure why Ada is not taking off these days. It is mature and has all the safety and concurrency bells and whistles: http://www.adacore.com/uploads_gems/07_safe_secure_ada_2005_... https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming/Tasking http://courses.cs.vt.edu/cs5204/sp99/Overheads/6UP/6UPCSPand...

I mean, isn't SPARK basically meant for high assurance things (like Tor should be)?

& considering that Naval Research Laboratory gifted us with Tor it is surprising it wasn't written in Ada to begin with.

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#60

Post by RandomOpinion »

bluejekyll wrote: post #55
eternalban wrote: post #43

Not sure why Ada is not taking off these days. It is mature and has all the safety and concurrency bells and whistles: http://www.adacore.com/uploads_gems/07_safe_secure_ada_2005_... https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming/Tasking http://courses.cs.vt.edu/cs5204/sp99/Overheads/6UP/6UPCSPand...

1) Two words: "begin" and "end"; 2) Unix, C is so fundamental to building software, that I think any language that doesn't share syntax with it is doomed. Having a common syntax helps in learning new languages, IMO, and can also be a launching point for differing semantics...

"BEGIN" and "END" aren't all that bad. Some of us got our start in software using Turbo Pascal long, long ago.
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