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Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

lists.torproject.org

41–50 of 254 posts

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#41
post #25

Since bitexploder asked, I'll add what I wrote on this on other forums. If it's about secrets or anonymity, make sure you always use a safe language that supports careful control and reasoning about both memory and CPU time. The reason is that this enables covert, channel analysis for vulnerabilities that leak secrets through storage and timing. It's why I wanted Freenet to ditch Java aside from the obvious reasons.…

It's unlikely that the cost of whole-program side channel resistance is worth it for an application like Tor. Side-channel-resistant cryptography is almost certainly sufficient for most reasonable threat/cost models.

You can limit it to the protocol layer. High-assurance security in military systems just used fixed-speed, fixed-timing transmission with covert channel analysis of setup, crypto operations, and error handling. Any problems at all violating key invariants cause fail-safe. Tor could do something similar.

Still need a language that allows such analysis at least for those components being analyzed.

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#42
post #37

As a mere average user of computer languages, every time I play around with Go I start wondering how a language like this became so popular. It feels like it was invented in a universe where Haskell, OCaml, Erlang, Smalltalk, Lisp and so many more languages and research in languages never happened.

Wow, have you seen JavaSCript?

Yes, but I think know how JS became popular; syntax similar to Java/C++ and pretty much the only language available on the browser.

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#43
Not sure why Ada is not taking off these days. It is mature and has all the safety and concurrency bells and whistles:

http://www.adacore.com/uploads_gems/07_safe_secure_ada_2005_...

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming/Tasking

http://courses.cs.vt.edu/cs5204/sp99/Overheads/6UP/6UPCSPand...

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#44

As a mere average user of computer languages, every time I play around with Go I start wondering how a language like this became so popular. It feels like it was invented in a universe where Haskell, OCaml, Erlang, Smalltalk, Lisp and so many more languages and research in languages never happened.

Go is designed for average programmers working in a huge organization. That's why its dullness is a virtue.

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#45
post #36

As a mere average user of computer languages, every time I play around with Go I start wondering how a language like this became so popular. It feels like it was invented in a universe where Haskell, OCaml, Erlang, Smalltalk, Lisp and so many more languages and research in languages never happened.

Go is a genersl purpose industry language. The ones you mention are niche or academic research languages.

There are companies built on Haskell and Erlang.

Just because a language is founded on good programming theory doesn't make it unviable in the industry.

Ideally, the reverse would be true.

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#46
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Today is April Fool's Day.

Oh. So I get it is a joke, I just don't get why it is a joke. I program daily in Go and everytime I read about buffer overflows and a dozen other preventable security holes I'm glad I'm programming in Go. But maybe this joke is only funny to those who enjoy programming in C? :)

Doesn't seem to be a joke, the "meeting" was week-long and lasted from the 22nd to the 27th: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/meetings/2...

It's just the ML recap mail which hit a rather poor timing.

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#47
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a mere average user of computer languages, every time I play around with Go I start wondering how a language like this became so popular. You can pick it up in a weekend. A lower entry bar means more people will try it out. > It feels like it was invented in a universe where Haskell, OCaml, Erlang, Smalltalk, Lisp and so many more languages and research in languages never happened. It was developed in a large en…

To be honest, you can probably also pick up Lisp in a weekend, experienced programmer or not. The syntax is also simpler.

But all those parentheses!

I know it sounds like a lame reason to dislike a language, but I've always found staring at Lisp to be so much more difficult and distracting than C-style syntax.

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#48
post #19

This is either a horribly timed announcement or a joke written very seriously. I have no idea which.

Seems legit, the meeting/sprint where all that stuff was decided/announced and done was last week (22 to 27 of March), it seems to just be the ML update which was unfortunately timed and posted late on the 31st.

Or Sebastian was very dedicated to the joke, but they seem to have posted a comment confirming it's serious on /r/rust: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/62o9rx/tordev_tor_in_...

Looking at their comment history, both the Tor membership and the interest in Rust are there, and Sebastian just tagged themselves on the relevant Tor issue: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/11331

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#49
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, have you seen JavaSCript?

Yes, but I think know how JS became popular; syntax similar to Java/C++ and pretty much the only language available on the browser.

I'll agree with your last part, "pretty much the only language available on the browser."

Re: Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam

#50
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, you can probably also pick up Lisp in a weekend, experienced programmer or not. The syntax is also simpler.

But all those parentheses! I know it sounds like a lame reason to dislike a language, but I've always found staring at Lisp to be so much more difficult and distracting than C-style syntax.

Use Emacs and take advantage of its electric indent.
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