Why Japan’s Rail Workers Point at Things • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Japan’s Rail Workers Point at Things

#121

Post by dpatriarche » Sat, Apr 01, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #25

euske wrote: post #24

I think that the root of this goes back all the way to Zen-type of thinking. In Zen, it's often taught that mind is elusive/delusive and action matters. "Mindlessness (mu-shin)" is often thought of the best way of carrying tasks, and I see a similar principle in many traditional martial arts/craftsmanship; a new learner should just do certain tasks without thinking/questioning, and eventually their muscle memory will…

It does sound very similar to plane checklists where the pilot has to call every item verbally.

Yes, you're right! My father was an Air Force pilot and then flew a private plane into his 60's. for 40 years he religiously followed the checklists, calling out and pointing to the relevant part of the plane for each item on the list: "windows and doors, check; wing flaps set for takeoff; seats latched; seat belts locked; etc."

http://www.mooneyland.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Mooney_...

I work on medical software now. It's kind of a well known story now how doctors are resistant to using checklists, like pilots do, even though it has been proven in studies to reduce medical errors.

It's an interesting idea that maybe we could employ a form of point-and-call checklist system in software development or operations.

Re: Why Japan’s Rail Workers Point at Things

#122

Post by nraynaud » Sat, Apr 01, 2017, 4:20 PM UTC

prashnts wrote: post #117

Slightly off topic but this practice of talking-out-loud to get yourself doing stuff is also beneficial to people with executive dysfunction. If your executive function is impaired you generally don't have the "internal monologue" or the voice in your head. This makes seemingly simpler things like taking a shower, driving, or eating, very difficult! I'd often "forget" to eat, simply because I could not get myself to…

on youtube a lot of single people operation use the "We" pronoun a lot. I guess it' a mix of wanting to look bigger, wanting to include the audience, but now it's become a trend.

Re: Why Japan’s Rail Workers Point at Things

#123

Post by kibwen » Sat, Apr 01, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

prashnts wrote: post #117

Slightly off topic but this practice of talking-out-loud to get yourself doing stuff is also beneficial to people with executive dysfunction. If your executive function is impaired you generally don't have the "internal monologue" or the voice in your head. This makes seemingly simpler things like taking a shower, driving, or eating, very difficult! I'd often "forget" to eat, simply because I could not get myself to…

Regarding the plural first-person, that's perfectly natural: just think of it as a heads-up to the legion of symbiotic gut flora and face-dwelling mites that you're carrying along for the ride. :)

Re: Why Japan’s Rail Workers Point at Things

#124

Post by dboreham » Sat, Apr 01, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

jakub_g wrote: post #32

I noticed the problem on myself on several occasions and kind of invented the same solution. For example, sometimes I would take a medicament mechanically while doing something else and just a few minutes later, forget if I took it or not. Solution: say loud to myself "I'm taking a pill". Another: sometimes I'd lend some amount money to a colleague, and a few weeks later I'd have a hard time figuring whether they gav…

"I'm locking the door", "I locked the door", "I'm trying the door now to see if I can open it".

Re: Why Japan’s Rail Workers Point at Things

#125

Post by tedajax » Sat, Apr 01, 2017, 4:25 PM UTC

Thrillington wrote: post #116

udkl wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of these can be done better by using technology. For example use an app to track IOUS .... or simply write down notes on your cell phone. In the case of the train operators though, technology as it stands now might be a hinderance. Notice from the videos that they go through gestures _rapidly_. Recording the action each time onto a tablet or such would be a hinderance that would only delay.

Absolutely not true in my experience. A cell phone reminder for a one-off is easily missed during my morning routine. A physical motion and/or out-loud speech associated with the event cements it much more effectively.

To add to your argument because I agree with you quite a bit:

A post-it stuck on the side of one's monitor seems vastly superior to any sort of app based reminder. It helps that creating the post-it and sticking it somewhere is itself a physical action that is remembered much more than a few taps of a thumb.

Re: Why Japan’s Rail Workers Point at Things

#126

Post by emiliobumachar » Sat, Apr 01, 2017, 4:25 PM UTC

I keep much better track of laps when jogging in the park after I started saying each lap number out loud when completing it.

Re: Why Japan’s Rail Workers Point at Things

#127

Post by rustynails » Sat, Apr 01, 2017, 4:30 PM UTC

innocentoldguy wrote: post #86

I've lived in Japan off and on for a number of years. "Pointing and shouting," and other similar gestures, are used all over the place. I typically heard it referred to as "yubisashi kakunin," which basically means "confirm by pointing with your finger." I've seen elevator attendants do it when operating the buttons, and cashiers will verbalize the counting of change, and hand it back in a very animated way, which I…

Both you and the author mentioned cultural barriers. However, throughout most of this thread, people have given quite a few of examples of where this is used in the west in a similar way (eg. Flight crew, climbers, theme park ride attendant, hockey coach, train driver). I worked in retail a long time ago. I was trained to vocalise receipt and calculating of change to minimise mistakes and to avoid customers disagreeing. I still see some people use this technique, especially in banks.

On the topic of cultures, I noticed the author used spokeswoman and spokesperson. Is the word spokesman banned in the US or is this a gender culture behaviour? Ars Technica use this language frequently, which leads me to suspect it's cultural rather than this one author.

Re: Why Japan’s Rail Workers Point at Things

#128

Post by Osiris » Sat, Apr 01, 2017, 4:34 PM UTC

I listened to a podcast about police doing something similar. When two officers we're approaching a situation way office would call or multiple times before taking an action. For example, "TASER! TASER! TASER!". this helps the other officer from mistaking the sound of the taser firing for a firearm.

Re: Why Japan’s Rail Workers Point at Things

#129

Post by Osiris » Sat, Apr 01, 2017, 4:36 PM UTC

DonHopkins wrote: post #48

I have a strict rule that I must touch my keys before closing the front door, because I discovered the keys in my memory don't open the door as well as the keys in my pocket.

I add a pants zipper check to that routine. I do a very quick touch to make sure my zipper is up after leaving the house and any time I leave a bathroom.

Re: Why Japan’s Rail Workers Point at Things

#130

Post by nabla9 » Sat, Apr 01, 2017, 4:38 PM UTC

jeena wrote: post #118

nabla9 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vipassana meditation uses naming technique as an aid to maintain constant awareness. You name what you are doing: 'walking'. Alternatively you name things that come up to awareness while meditating: 'thought, thought, frustration, need to scratch nose, .... sadness, thought". Japanese Soto Zen tradition has short verse for every task you do in monastery. Entering toilet verse etc. It's easy to lose ones awareness whe…

I was at one of those retreets and they told us not to think or concentrate on a special word or phrase because this would distract us, we were supposed to use the breathing if we needed some guidance.

Different teachers and traditions use different techniques. Naming is very common in vipassana.