Some Tips to Improve the Civility on Hacker News • Hacker News Board

Re: Some Tips to Improve the Civility on Hacker News

#21

Post by looprecur » Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 11:21 AM UTC

pavs wrote: post #16

> I have thick enough skin or I wouldn’t blog. ... > It’s totally acceptable to me for people to harshly criticize my > points-of-view. No problem. But calling me a f***ing a**hole or some > of the other epithets used goes too far. Does not compute. Though I agree with you that such language is not nice and can be (should be) avoided as much as possible. Some people sometimes have bad days and certain topics can brin…

I don't think "fucking asshole" is much worse than "trophy kid". They're about comparable in terms of incivility.

Re: Some Tips to Improve the Civility on Hacker News

#22

Post by arethuza » Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 11:21 AM UTC

michael_dorfman wrote: post #11

marilyn wrote: post #6

The civility on HN is unparallelled. This community, with pg's guidance has done an amazing job of fostering a thoughtful community for intelligent discussion. Suster's arguments all focus around one particular discussion in which emotions ran a little higher than usual, and are not, in my opinion, representative of the community as a whole. As for Suster's suggestions, the first one would be a mistake. There are man…

Let's not get too self-congratulatory here. Yes, the civility on HN is much higher than on many other discussion sites, but it's still a lot lower than you'd find in most real-world situations. I agree that throwaway accounts are useful, and that there are times when anonymity is advantageous, and that the added civility that comes with real names is a bad tradeoff in this case. However: in this case, the second poin…

Is the civility level on any site like this doomed to decrease over time as popularity grows?

Re: Some Tips to Improve the Civility on Hacker News

#23

Post by ugh » Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 11:34 AM UTC

10ren wrote: post #14

ugh wrote: post #2

Those comments he linked to did contain actual arguments. They also contained insults, which is unfortunate, but they were definitely not merely ad hominems. I would not have problems with such comments directed at myself. As long as there are well written, structured arguments in there a insult won’t annoy me. Well, it probably will, but not very much. I think it‘s also important to note that this is a controversial…

I think that insults combined with actual arguments are worse than plain insults, because the latter are easy to ignore. The only trolls that ever got to me were the ones that combined them. Also, the guidelines are quite clear on shortening responses ( http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html - bottom of frontpage): > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is an idiotic…

Insults are unfortunate. I thought I was quite clear on that?

Re: Some Tips to Improve the Civility on Hacker News

#24

Post by seabee » Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 11:36 AM UTC

pavs wrote: post #16

> I have thick enough skin or I wouldn’t blog. ... > It’s totally acceptable to me for people to harshly criticize my > points-of-view. No problem. But calling me a f***ing a**hole or some > of the other epithets used goes too far. Does not compute. Though I agree with you that such language is not nice and can be (should be) avoided as much as possible. Some people sometimes have bad days and certain topics can brin…

You can be thick-skinned without being totally oblivious.

Offensive ad hominems further no debate, and they aren't even a skilful way of showing emotion. I wouldn't put up with it if that's all I got. However, some people can't take it when people (rightly) tear them a new one for some flawed point they make. Hell, some people get ultra-defensive at light criticism. There's a spectrum of skinned-ness, and I wouldn't define thick-skinned as accepting obscene idiots gracefully.

Re: Some Tips to Improve the Civility on Hacker News

#25

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 11:39 AM UTC

seabee wrote: post #24

pavs wrote: post #16

> I have thick enough skin or I wouldn’t blog. ... > It’s totally acceptable to me for people to harshly criticize my > points-of-view. No problem. But calling me a f***ing a**hole or some > of the other epithets used goes too far. Does not compute. Though I agree with you that such language is not nice and can be (should be) avoided as much as possible. Some people sometimes have bad days and certain topics can brin…

You can be thick-skinned without being totally oblivious. Offensive ad hominems further no debate, and they aren't even a skilful way of showing emotion. I wouldn't put up with it if that's all I got. However, some people can't take it when people (rightly) tear them a new one for some flawed point they make. Hell, some people get ultra-defensive at light criticism. There's a spectrum of skinned-ness, and I wouldn't…

[deleted]

Re: Some Tips to Improve the Civility on Hacker News

#26

Post by swombat » Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 11:45 AM UTC

michael_dorfman wrote: post #11

marilyn wrote: post #6

The civility on HN is unparallelled. This community, with pg's guidance has done an amazing job of fostering a thoughtful community for intelligent discussion. Suster's arguments all focus around one particular discussion in which emotions ran a little higher than usual, and are not, in my opinion, representative of the community as a whole. As for Suster's suggestions, the first one would be a mistake. There are man…

Let's not get too self-congratulatory here. Yes, the civility on HN is much higher than on many other discussion sites, but it's still a lot lower than you'd find in most real-world situations. I agree that throwaway accounts are useful, and that there are times when anonymity is advantageous, and that the added civility that comes with real names is a bad tradeoff in this case. However: in this case, the second poin…

Actually, having just observed a situation where a bunch of people who met in real life exploded into an immature email discussion full of insults and accusations, I don't think the civility on here is any worse than it is in real life.

I think the reason why it feels like "real life" is more civil is that you don't hear about people insulting each other in real life, because they don't usually shout it out on the rooftops (in my experience, after a particularly nasty discussion, both sides prefer to keep it quiet and just not talk to each other anymore).

Re: Some Tips to Improve the Civility on Hacker News

#27

Post by tom_ilsinszki » Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 12:09 PM UTC

"Make all users post under real names that you verify".

Advantages:

* Better comment quality: verified users would think twice if they wanted a curse words to show up when someone googled their name.

* Connectivity: If you like someone's reasoning and thinking, it would be easier to check out more about what they do online (accomplishments, blogs, twitter, etc).

Disadvantages, anyone?

Re: Some Tips to Improve the Civility on Hacker News

#28

Post by acangiano » Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 12:10 PM UTC

It wasn't the main point of the article, but on a side note, Hacker News doesn't even have a reset password link, do you seriously expect email notifications to bloggers?

Re: Some Tips to Improve the Civility on Hacker News

#29

Post by ErrantX » Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 12:12 PM UTC

tom_ilsinszki wrote: post #27

"Make all users post under real names that you verify". Advantages: * Better comment quality: verified users would think twice if they wanted a curse words to show up when someone googled their name. * Connectivity: If you like someone's reasoning and thinking, it would be easier to check out more about what they do online (accomplishments, blogs, twitter, etc). Disadvantages, anyone?

pbiggar might have some insights here, his startup (newstilt) uses Facebook logins only for this very reason.

Disadvantages?

It's hard to do- how do you verify the names? Some people will post more insightful things under their pseudonym.

Take my example; I'm quite happy to discuss my work openly if it is interesting (which it has proven in the past). My pseudonym is very open and you can find out who I am in about 2 minutes; but if I had to use my real name directly I'm not sure I would post so openly about those topics.

Re: Some Tips to Improve the Civility on Hacker News

#30

Post by mooism2 » Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 12:21 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #26

michael_dorfman wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not get too self-congratulatory here. Yes, the civility on HN is much higher than on many other discussion sites, but it's still a lot lower than you'd find in most real-world situations. I agree that throwaway accounts are useful, and that there are times when anonymity is advantageous, and that the added civility that comes with real names is a bad tradeoff in this case. However: in this case, the second poin…

Actually, having just observed a situation where a bunch of people who met in real life exploded into an immature email discussion full of insults and accusations, I don't think the civility on here is any worse than it is in real life. I think the reason why it feels like "real life" is more civil is that you don't hear about people insulting each other in real life, because they don't usually shout it out on the ro…

I think that demonstrates a broader version of his point: people are more civil towards each other in the offline world than they are in the online world.