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Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the code block format not explicitly designed for quoting lengthy snippets of text in a non-disruptive way? >You're just making work for yourself by sticking in manual line breaks and indenting Not much work, just a handful of keystrokes with the right software, and that's without optimizing the flow much. Could get it down more by making a macro. >making work for the reader who may have to scroll horizontally if…

> Is the code block format not explicitly designed for quoting lengthy snippets of text in a non-disruptive way? No, it's designed to preserve alignment and line breaks by using a monospace font and not wrapping, specifically for the purpose of presenting source code. It's modestly useful for tabular data for the same reason. It's not good at all for normal text, especially large blocks of text.

>It's not good at all for normal text, especially large blocks of text.

I mean, I disagree. It looks and seems better to me. I understand that the font is monospaced but I don't see that as a problem. I understand that the text is put inside its own horizontal scrollbox instead of wrapped automatically, but again, I also don't see that as a problem for a lengthy block of text. I agree it would be annoying to have to scroll on every quotation anyone made.

When I say long blocks of text, I mean a snippet that is 60 lines by 60 columns, like the transcript excerpt I posted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13976410 . Personally, I would rather scroll past that than scrolling past a long italicized, autowrapped block every time I came to the thread.

People keep saying it breaks the layout in some cases, and if so, then they are right to ask that people refrain from using it until the bug gets fixed. However, I haven't observed such breakage happening, and no one I've asked has shown it. At the moment, it appears to be a personal preference thing.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeh well my friend is the CEO of a company and its evaluated at millions of dollars but shes salaried less than an entry level engineer and has a tight budget. She had student loans and $300 in her bank account when she started her company. Her dad was a carpenter in Brooklyn and her mom a school teacher. She gave up her personal paycheck for 2 months to keep from laying off her best employees when she was in between…

>yeh well my friend is the CEO of a company and its evaluated at millions of dollars but shes salaried less than an entry level engineer and has a tight budget. Ah, so you're doing the silly thing called "equivocation". I never said all business owners were horrible people; it should be pretty obvious that I'm railing against mega-millionaire/billionaire CEOs of large and highly valued companies. It's just like compl…

With your caveats in place, I think we agree. And equivocation was just to provide an alternative reference point before I realized you were pointing out the upper echelon. In general, I still think its worth pointing out because what you did was over generalize, and while with the caveats here I agree with you, whether accidental or not, the media and the commentors on high profile forums really need to stop over generalizing things to make a point.

It is a horrible habit and one encouraged by mainstream media. Criticising people in power is a great thing enabled somewhat by western democracy, european socialism, and great places like this and other on the internet, but the over generalizing is hurting not only the United States but our ability to gain traction en masse as people on effective action versus aggregate ignorant responses to emotional appeals, which are harder and harder to track who has the most influence in.

For example, note the article last week on HN about how so many people have concerns about AI, which have evolved into worries and now very emotionally charged political opinions, but there is a huge mismatch between understanding what AI is, what different forms of it are, the concept versus the level at which it exists in reality, the challenges, the inherent differences between AI and the brain, how little we know about the brain, and the ways in which it can be employed. I literally can't tell you how many people believe in the next 3 years everyone will be reading the newspaper on the way to work in self driving cars and that this is just right on its way to happening and in 8 years we will all be over run by robots.

Having the facts and educating the masses as more Tech Ceos and tech ideas influence society at a fundamental level of oepration is crucial in the next 10-50-100 years, and keeping CEOs of corporations making this technology is a priority too, but I don't think demonizing them off the bat from the get go and assuming everyone in those positions is a sociopath is either data based, accurate, or productive moving forward as a society.

By over generalizing, stereotyping and demonizing anyone who fits into a mainstream stereotype (tree hugging liberals, evil republicans) I argue that we as people are giving our ideas, definitions, and opinions away to be swayed by mass media instead of scrutinizing core issues and communicating an empowered (not just emotionally strong) response with effective action.

That being said, I actually really like the idea of what you said regarding asking other intelligent females why they chose other paths despite there being some obvious cultural influences/good initial guesses such that it does not offer as much prestige as being a lawyer or doctor.

I also agree with you, of the few other women I interact with at work and my technical school, most are Asian or Indian based ethnicity. I would say in the countries they come from, providing concrete and measurable value measured by income is encouraged over more abstract forms of valuation (being an Art History major) because of globalization and the countries need to catch up in realms of measureable competition with first world countries.

In addition, theres probably not many work visas lying around for art history majors, and less of a chance for people working in other countries who desire to experience western work world and benefit from it to actually accomplish that.

The work visa issue in the tech force is a whole different story but not too hard to figure out/find out about.

At the end of the day, all women in general, not just looking at ones already in high performing roles (doctors, lawyers versus engineers) humans tend to operate on incentive, and as a 26 yr old female who is not entirely hideous and is able to have a decent conversation with a human being, I can tell you for myself it is way too easy to underperform, get shoved into auxiliary roles, marketing roles, front facing roles, sales roles, marry one of the many men to choose from in the industry and thats after going through years of emotional isolation from being a minority in all of my classes and struggling to maintain healthy boundaries with friends because they were mostly guys and I was one of the only girls around, and one of the only girls around with shared interests.

I have actively and deliberately avoided being in these roles but the number of times I've been asked approached about it or given the opportunity, highly encouraged or crticisized for not engaging in these less technically developing roles is really high and not even close to being on par with my male colleagues. "oh youre an ambitious female in a tech job, lets have you spend 80% of your time being the poster child for a female in tech, instead of actually being a female in tech"

good intentions pave the way to...umm I don't want to sell hell but "unintended socioeconomic repercussions"

Being and staying a highly technical female engineer and staying in core disciplines development (aka for me GPU kernel dev, Graphics programming ...etc I was Electrical Engineering with Computer Science minor) and shaking off all the men who want to put you in the kitchen because your the best thing on their team department or even company since sliced bread is not just not easy but emotionally burdensome sometimes.

Anywhere I work, it takes all the men who are interested in me men about two years for it to slowly kick in as if this is an algorithm they have to develop inside their head and debug until an output comes out, that I'm actually not at work husband shopping. Men have said this to me quote above like...its some kind of novel.

The saddest part is alot of these men actually want high performing women to be housewives, so if you even get to the already thinned out demographic of being a female engineer in a highly technical role in a male dominated environment, now you have conservatively 1/10 men at your company who would rather you be having their family and staying at home, and unlike other men, they have the money to do it and support you. While this is not the path I have or plan to take, I have seen many women take this path, and by many I mean the many of the few who end up in highly technical roles.

If you look at stats, even more alarming than the high performing women who choose to go to to other careers outside of STEM, are the ones who leave the workforce all together to be full time moms. No opinion or judgment on that, raising humans is not trivial and every person gets to decide how they do that within reasonable bounds of law, but to pretend its not a significant factor is delaying addressing the issue.

Google health insurance allows females to freeze their eggs to give birth later, and to me thats just an initial example of goign in the right direction towards technology development in healthcare and the business around it so that women don't have to feel like raising children and working is a choice they have to make. Some women pull it off, but it could be easier, alot easier and alot healthier, and we could increase the time range at which women could have healthy kids safely by alot. I hope to see biotech focus on women reproduction and kids going forward to help address this issue as well.

I think at the end of the day for high to low performing women, its very easy to not be high performing or highly technical. There's not enough incentive at the individual level, and too many easy ways out, even if at the other end we can see the cumulative benefits on many fronts cultural ,technical, impact, integration, design etc that could be had from having 50/50 in the tech force.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but how else would you build empathy and diversity amongst your team? Say you hired a minority who has different interest with the majority on the team. If left unchecked, the minority will always feel excluded (unless they have a strong personality).

If I were on a team where management tried to micro-manage conversion toward some ideal of "diversity", then believe me, "empathy" would not be the emotion I would be feeling. Okay, make me unhappy. I'm just another toxic male. I can go, right? My leaving will just make the rest of the team more vibrant or whatever. Well, I produce 10x more code than the rest of the team put together, so good luck.

Hi, please take the time to self evaluate and see if your approach will lead you to where you want to be in life, whether it be having alot of money, being happy, being a great parent, etc. From your comment, I'm getting this vibe "If people don't like me, fuck it. I'm better than everybody else."

It sounds like you are a very intelligent and motivated person , so lets think about this logically.

Here's an alternative scenario: lets say you take the time and effort to get your team to like you and inspire them to improve to your skill level. If you are the 10x engineer, then produce code at 1x and spend the other 9x learning and doing what it takes to inspire the rest of the team to get to your productivity. If it takes the team 1 year to get to your productivity and the team has size of 10, then the team collectively will have 100x productivity by the end of the year. You would be able to accomplish way more than what you could have accomplished yourself. (Obviously, I generalized the math. But you get the point).

Counter argument: "I don't plan to stay in the company for that long to reap the benefits"

Fortunately, if you inspire somebody to become 10x the person they were, you would have made a lasting impact in their lives. Companies come and go, but relationships stick around. If you leave to do your startup, chances are these 10x engineers would be more than happy to join (at various stages of success during the life of the startup).

This is all I have time to write. I hope this helps. Good luck.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>yeh well my friend is the CEO of a company and its evaluated at millions of dollars but shes salaried less than an entry level engineer and has a tight budget. Ah, so you're doing the silly thing called "equivocation". I never said all business owners were horrible people; it should be pretty obvious that I'm railing against mega-millionaire/billionaire CEOs of large and highly valued companies. It's just like compl…

With your caveats in place, I think we agree. And equivocation was just to provide an alternative reference point before I realized you were pointing out the upper echelon. In general, I still think its worth pointing out because what you did was over generalize, and while with the caveats here I agree with you, whether accidental or not, the media and the commentors on high profile forums really need to stop over ge…

Very interesting post. I will say that's really weird that a bunch of men want to marry you and then turn you into a full-time housewife. Personally, as a divorced man (where the marriage ended largely because of finances) one of the biggest things I've been looking for with dating prospects is someone who's professional and has their own paycheck roughly equivalent of mine, so I don't have to take care of someone again. (I also seem to be a little beyond the age of having kids, as I'm just over 40.) The last thing I want is a housewife, and all the economic uncertainty that comes with having only a single earner in the household.

I do think the stuff about why women leave the workforce is important, but I think it should also be investigated on the male side too for comparison and contrast. Do women actually want to leave the industry more than men? Perhaps it's similar, but they're just more successful at it. Speaking personally, I frequently wish I could leave the industry. I like technology, but honestly I hate the industry. I really hate the open-plan work spaces more than anything, and they've become the norm everywhere. I also don't appreciate having so little of my work mean anything, and spending all my time on projects that end up in the trashcan. I'm tired of coworkers who never comment their code, and the lousy quality of code in general. I'm tired of horrible IT systems and policies. Finding a job that doesn't have these problems is possible, but not even remotely easy. And the jobs are usually located in terrible places too. I frequently wish I had gone into some kind of medical field, where there's more job stability, the pay's decent, there isn't pressure to work 60-80 hours/week, and you can work just about anywhere you want.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#505
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are ignoring the fact that i said males like to hang around other males, and it makes it exponentially hard for a woman to enter the "club". I assume you are a woman. Is your best friend a man or girl?

I'm a woman, and my best friend is a man. I have many more male friends than female ones in general, just due to my interests. I've never once had the faintest idea of sex cross my mind when making relationships with co-workers or other male friends (I've been in a steady relationship for 7 years though, so it's not like I'm looking). Never once. And all my male friends I've made have never once conveyed anything sex…

somewhat yes.

I really dont believe your best friend is a guy.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>yeh well my friend is the CEO of a company and its evaluated at millions of dollars but shes salaried less than an entry level engineer and has a tight budget. Ah, so you're doing the silly thing called "equivocation". I never said all business owners were horrible people; it should be pretty obvious that I'm railing against mega-millionaire/billionaire CEOs of large and highly valued companies. It's just like compl…

With your caveats in place, I think we agree. And equivocation was just to provide an alternative reference point before I realized you were pointing out the upper echelon. In general, I still think its worth pointing out because what you did was over generalize, and while with the caveats here I agree with you, whether accidental or not, the media and the commentors on high profile forums really need to stop over ge…

Another interesting data point for you about men at work wanting to turn you into a housewife:

https://qz.com/946816/millennials-are-more-likely-than-their...

I hope this doesn't sound too snide, but it looks like it's a generational thing. [creaky old man voice :-) ] Back in my day, we believed in equality for women. Nowadays, all these young adults want women to stay at home, barefoot and pregnant. [old man voice off] Seriously, this study is rather disturbing, but does make sense. As someone a little over 40, and part of the Gen-Xers, I've been wondering for quite some time what all the hoopla about sexual harassment at work was about, because I never saw anything like it in the various different companies I worked at, big and small, except for one weird incident at a very small company in a rural area right out of college (and that was a manufacturing company, and the incident was involving non-college-educated hourly workers). I've said many times I thought it might be generational, but was always told "you don't know about it because you're not on the receiving end", even though many times these stories involve actions that are more overt and really are visible to other employees, and involve a culture of harassment (as Fowler described at Uber, with inappropriate stuff right in a meeting). And the whole "brogrammer" phenomenon is something that came well after I entered the workforce. So this article really makes sense to me and confirms my suspicions: the Millennials are more traditionalist than my generation, and also more susceptible to sexist behavior. So I'm sorry you've had to deal with that crap, but it does seem like things are getting worse in this society in these ways.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#507
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a case to be made that, in general, women may be more sensitive to some universal tech industry issues which men tend to shrug off or otherwise deal with differently.

Your being down voted because no one wants to hear it, but there is some truth to it. It isn't so much a biological difference (there may be some of that) but one that is likely a byproduct of how we socialize children [1]. Fixing this issue in adults is a hell of a lot harder to fix than it is in kids. It doesn't help that software engineering as a whole, is to varying degrees, broken. From how we interview to how w…

I think this is a more likely scenario -- nurture rather than nature.

Nobody's born with bias or opinions.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "bullshit mythmaking"? I'm not familiar with that turn of phrase.

It was my own off the cuff phrase. It's hard to relay the subtleties that I am trying to get across. I think that a lot of career programmers overstate the difficulty of their jobs, and how impossible it would be for people who don't closely hew to the archetype of the genius iconoclast hacker to contribute at all, even when they've demonstrated relevant aptitude and competence. These biases strike me as damaging to…

Or to put it the other way, are Gates, Zuckerberg, etc even their own archetypes, or where those labels foisted upon them by the zeitgeist's expectations of their role? And they went along because it was simpler, easier, or more financially beneficial?

In either case, agreed that changing the popular mythos is absolutely a prerequisite to resolving the inequity.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#509
post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The boy in question was 5, at that age he don't care about girls yet. Girls his age don't care about his dancing. Yes, girls want things that belong to girls. But grandma won't buy boy lego even of kid wants it and ask for it. And definitely not randomly for birthsday or something.

If grandma won't give things that are explicitly wished for, maybe you should have a talk with grandma, or only wish for money in the future. Your sample size seems to be 1. I must admit I also have mixed feelings about the disapproval of boys doing girlish things. The adults doing so might actually save the boys from embarrassment later on. You might see that as proving your point, but there are different expectatio…

In one of the better turns of phrase from my college years, my 60s-era professor for "Violence in the Political System",

Question: How do we end civil wars?

Answer: Murder all the grandmothers.

Explanation: In the majority of civil wars, men comprise the bulk of causualties, thus leaving females as the only link between generations. Consequently, it is the grandmothers that teach younger generations to hate and perpetuate violence as retribution from that which was visited upon themselves and their family.

It's stuck with me ever since, and I think it's a good point for thinking about cultural evolution. Even if a new generation were a blank slate and completely compassionate on issue du jour, how is that affected by the historical impulses of those older from previous generations and thoughts?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't aware HN had a policy of discouraging women from answering questions that are asked in those threads. Seems like a terrible thing that needs to change.

Doesn't need to be a policy to be an emergent property

Do you have anything to support that claim?
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