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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#631

Post by ionised »

ForRealsies wrote: post #32
ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

The EU is a novelty in human history. The desire for independence, for better or worse, is human nature.

This is a gross oversimplification.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#632

Post by ionised »

coldtea wrote: post #250
mrcarrot wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to any case where the UK could not make a law that it wanted to because of "having to wait for Brussels"?

> where the UK could not make a law that it wanted to because of "having to wait for Brussels"? "Having to wait" not as in actually waiting (e.g. as if Brussels would somehow slow down the pace of law-making in the UK) but in the sense UK will have to be handed down to adopt and enforce EU laws. So, wanting to make a law about X, in the sense that UK citizens see it and to their interests? Tough luck, unless it match…

And in those cases I have typically sided with the EU (I'm British).

Data protection laws, anti-trust laws, labour protections, a concerted effort to combat cross-border tax evasion (that the UK ruined by opting not to take part, due to it's enjoyment of being a fucking tax haven) just to name a few.

Seriously, when it comes to laws that protect the average schmuck, the EU is far from perfect but it has been a hell of a lot better than what our own politicians when it comes to looking out for us.

I'd rather be closer to Europe than closer to the US. No question, especially now with that batshit lunatic they have in charge.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#633

Post by ionised »

stale2002 wrote: post #453
mrcarrot wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to any case where the UK could not make a law that it wanted to because of "having to wait for Brussels"?

Sure. Lets say the UK wants to implement an immigration point system for evaluating which immigrants to let in. They can't do that while being in the EU.

That is a condition that every EU member state abides by.

Demanding special treatment and not getting it is not a failing of the EU, but of the UK.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#634

Post by ionised »

mattmanser wrote: post #514
chimprich wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Petulant? It is your comment that seems quite emotional; "Grow up", "utter fools", etc. It is entirely rational for the EU to try to get the best possible deal they can.

How is it emotional to simply describe how people are acting? I don't understand your comment's relevancy? How would you describe the EU's actions right now? Rather than firing Junker and reforming, they're going to try and punish the UK to try and frighten their own citizens into staying EU members. That's not rational or a considered response, that's an emotional one at odds with what is best for all of Europe's ci…

It's subjective.

From my perspective (as a Brit) it's us that have been the petulant ones, demanding special treatment and opt-outs from this directive or that, then throwing a temper tantrum when we couldn't have our own way.

All of that, combined with a relentless decades-long campaign of lies and vitriol from the Murdoch press, resulting in such gems as "the EU demands we have straight bananas!" among various myths, falsehoods and outright lies about the EU;

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

The entire leave campaign has been fuelled by an outrageous sense of entitlement on the part of a huge swathe of the population that cannot accept that we are no longer a world power to be reckoned with, and the hilariously inaccurate perceptions people have of the various EU bodies and how they work.

The EU is far from perfect, but by comparison the UK is a fucking catastrophe of systemic classism, crony capitalism and unelected hereditary privilege.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#635

Post by ionised »

Two9A wrote: post #5

Are British HN'ers taking any mitigating steps due to this whole situation? I'm currently in the process of incorporating in the Netherlands, and it turns out setting up a Ltd is a lot more expensive over there than in the UK. I just don't feel that the UK will make good use of my tax receipts any more, so I'm almost obligated to take my work elsewhere.

Looking into options abroad.

I'ma software developer so I have skills in demand in Europe, but the language is a barrier in some places. My girlfriend is Polish and speaks a little German, and I have been considering taking German language lessons.

That said, a few people I know have moved to Germany without speaking the language and said they did fine and everyone was really friendly, so perhaps I could learn once I was there.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#636

Post by stale2002 »

ionised wrote: post #633
stale2002 wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Lets say the UK wants to implement an immigration point system for evaluating which immigrants to let in. They can't do that while being in the EU.

That is a condition that every EU member state abides by. Demanding special treatment and not getting it is not a failing of the EU, but of the UK.

The question that was asked was "what laws is the UK unable to implement because of the EU".

And I gave an example. The EU prevents the UK from making this law. And if the UK wants to pass this law (which it does!!!), then it needs to leave the EU.

This is a perfectly valid reason for leaving the EU. Because the EU doesn't let you do this thing that you want to do.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#637

Post by simonh »

rayiner wrote: post #428
simonh wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A primarily trade union with most political decisions made by nation states is exactly what the EU is. The failure of the Euro has also pretty much guaranteed it will stay that way too.

The crucial difference is that the E.U. can impose regulations on citizens of member states that have the force of law, and those laws override national law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_(European_Union) . The U.S. has a similar principal (the Supremacy Clause), and in the long term that resulted in the gutting of states as sovereign entities.

It can't do that without the agreement of the states though. Directives are created at the direction of the European Council, made up of the heads of state of every EU member state.

US states don't have veto powers over federal legislation, but EU states do. Hence Britain never joined the Schengen Agreement and kept its own currency. We had the best of both worlds and threw it away.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#638

Post by dalore »

matt4077 wrote: post #359
dalore wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each British homeowner should be independent. A man's house is his castle. The could all be lords of their own empire but band together when needed to fight common enemies. Perhaps they could all group together money to help pay for common services like roads etc.

I had to check your history to see if this is satire. Since it's not: this is a completely misguided view of human nature. Humans are among the most social of all animals, and our successes and failures have always been a function of our ability to work together. Humans everywhere, and at any time, have created groups held together by a lot more than transactional opportunities. And even if you were right, and it is…

Why wouldn't you think it was satire?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#639

Post by ben_w »

presidente20 wrote: post #622
ben_w wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UKIP MEPs rather famously don't bother to vote in the EP as much as other MEPs.

Fair point but do you think it would make any difference?

Any? Certainly. How much I would not want to say — my opinion is that UKIP created the dissatisfaction that they fed upon for votes. But that's just opinion.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#640

Post by presidente20 »

ben_w wrote: post #639
presidente20 wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point but do you think it would make any difference?

Any ? Certainly. How much I would not want to say — my opinion is that UKIP created the dissatisfaction that they fed upon for votes. But that's just opinion.

I think it's unlikely that members skeptical of the institution itself would have much influence.

I think the Leavers were dissatisfied from the beginning. You can directly trace the formation of UKIP from the Maastricht Rebels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Rebels in the Major government.

UKIP was formed out of protest at what they saw as the EU going off in a highly political direction (i.e. becoming a lot more than just an economic area).

They may be wrong but the objections are based on fundamentals.

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