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Wall Street's WhatsApp Secret: Illegal Texting Is Out of Control

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Re: Wall Street's WhatsApp Secret: Illegal Texting Is Out of Control

#21
post #15

So the media starts to scare us about illegal texting. Oh no! Lets make all chat apps non-secure so the bankers can no longer chat illegally anymore

That was my first thought as well. Look out for more "[unpopular group] uses [encrypted service] to break the rules" articles coming soon.

Well, it is an easy way to "sell" these things...

Anyway, I've got two: paedophiles and terrorist.

Apparently, traders have now joined that elite. I'm just surprised bankers didn't make it there first... given the public sentiment. (I'm not sure I have any position (heh) on the matter myself.)

Re: Wall Street's WhatsApp Secret: Illegal Texting Is Out of Control

#23
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my first thought as well. Look out for more "[unpopular group] uses [encrypted service] to break the rules" articles coming soon.

Well, it is an easy way to "sell" these things... Anyway, I've got two: paedophiles and terrorist. Apparently, traders have now joined that elite. I'm just surprised bankers didn't make it there first... given the public sentiment. (I'm not sure I have any position (heh) on the matter myself.)

And techies! /s

Re: Wall Street's WhatsApp Secret: Illegal Texting Is Out of Control

#24

Isn't the obvious solution to ban personal phones, or personal apps, at work? It's not hard.

No cell phones on trading floors at Goldman, if I recall.

Nothing stopping people from chatting on Whatsapp after hours though; plenty of stuff stays sensitive after the close of business.

Re: Wall Street's WhatsApp Secret: Illegal Texting Is Out of Control

#25
post #8
post #5

So people have private ways to communicate, and sometimes they break the law by communicating forbidden stuff, hasn't that been a thing for ages? Why the sudden hate on Whatsapp, if there's a rise of law breaking messages, the root cause is elsewhere.

Probably due to fewer evidentiary "crumbs" left behind. No witnesses to meetings, conversation eavesdroppers or recorded calls --now everything is more or less deniable and irrefutable, unless one of the parties decides to double cross the other.

You cannot prosecute someone based on hearsay. In someways Whats App makes it easier because you could take the phone as evidence and see a record of all non-deleted correspondence complete with time stamp rather than trying to build a case based on two buddies grabbing a beer together.

Which is why a lot of these technologies are targeted. Not because encryption makes it harder for enforcement agencies since there's always been a plethora of ways to communicate in secret. But because gaining back doors to these applications makes it easier for them than it's ever been.

Sadly the point enforcement agencies always overlook is they're basically just fighting a game of "wack a mole". Encryption isn't something that's going to go away. Not even if you legislate against it. People know it exists and there are a thousand different ways to run software on your handset - even just via web sites directly thus bypassing all the controls for side-loading native apps. So all this posturing about the "evils" of WhatsApp is just a monumental waste of everyone's time.

Re: Wall Street's WhatsApp Secret: Illegal Texting Is Out of Control

#27
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my first thought as well. Look out for more "[unpopular group] uses [encrypted service] to break the rules" articles coming soon.

Well, it is an easy way to "sell" these things... Anyway, I've got two: paedophiles and terrorist. Apparently, traders have now joined that elite. I'm just surprised bankers didn't make it there first... given the public sentiment. (I'm not sure I have any position (heh) on the matter myself.)

Texting while driving does actually kill, but there is a less definable/unpopular "them" to target.

Re: Wall Street's WhatsApp Secret: Illegal Texting Is Out of Control

#28

Isn't the obvious solution to ban personal phones, or personal apps, at work? It's not hard.

Do you honestly think that's a feasible solution? Who in their right mind would work for a company that doesn't allow them to bring their personal phone to work? Unless it were required by law, no company would do that to their white collar employees -- they'd all leave for a company that doesn't treat them like eight year olds. (I feel like this would never be suggested on HN if we were discussing software companies rather than finance.)

Re: Wall Street's WhatsApp Secret: Illegal Texting Is Out of Control

#29
Hum. I mean I don't condone conducting illegal activities over encrypted chats of course (particularly given than some activities quoted in this article are pretty shocking and would cost these banks the loss of customers), but we should also keep in mind what regulators and compliance departments do with this monitoring of conversations.

The best example is the Fabrice Tourre affair at Goldman Sachs. Two examples I noted:

First the SEC quotes Tourre "More and more leverage in the system, The whole building is about to collapse anytime now…Only potential survivor, the fabulous Fab[rice Tourre]…standing in the middle of all these complex, highly leveraged, exotic trades he created without necessarily understanding all of the implications of those monstruosities!!!" [1]

Where the actual sentence was (translating the bits in French): You should take a look at this article... Very insightful... More and more leverage in the system, the whole building is about to collapse anytime. Only potential survivor, the fabulous fab (as Mitch would kindly call me, even though there is nothing fabulous about me, just kindness, altruism and deep love for some gorgeous and super-smart French girl in London), standing in the middle of all these complex, highly leveraged, exotic trades he created without necessarily understanding all the implications of these monstruosities!!! Anyway, not feeling too guilty about this, the real purpose of my job is to make capital markets more efficient and ultimately provide the US consumer with more efficient ways to leverage and finance himself, etc [2]

I wouldn't write that in an email, but still, the sentence has a very different meaning with the bits edited out by the SEC back in.

Second example, one of Tourre's managers was quoted writing "boy that timeberwof was one shitty deal". This was repeated over and over by congress as if it was a reference to the quality of the collateral of the transaction, i.e. Goldman Sachs sells some product to a client that they call internally a shitty product. But if you look at the actual email trail [3], they are not discussing about the quality of the collateral in that CDO, but of the fact that they are left with a $300m unsold position, which understandably is undesirable as a market maker.

So here we have examples of compliance departments sending unrelated personal emails to the regulators (in a shameless attempt to scapegoat an employee) and regulators editing sentences to alter or ignore the context. No wonder why bankers aren't keen to have their conversations on record.

[1] https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2010/comp-pr2010-5... page 7

[2] http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01623/Fabrice_To...

[3] https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Financial_Crisis/... page 224

Re: Wall Street's WhatsApp Secret: Illegal Texting Is Out of Control

#30

Isn't the obvious solution to ban personal phones, or personal apps, at work? It's not hard.

Do you honestly think that's a feasible solution? Who in their right mind would work for a company that doesn't allow them to bring their personal phone to work? Unless it were required by law, no company would do that to their white collar employees -- they'd all leave for a company that doesn't treat them like eight year olds. (I feel like this would never be suggested on HN if we were discussing software companies…

Many companies with highly confidential information do this. A friend of mine is a programmer at such a company.
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