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Stanford Professor Loses Political Battle To Simplify Tax Filing Process

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Re: Stanford Professor Loses Political Battle To Simplify Tax Filing Process

#351

Post by pbh101 »

avmich wrote: post #240
pbh101 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>since taxpayers might end up paying taxes already on the books that they might have previously unintentionally evaded. To take the charitable explanation of this position: studies have shown that prices go up when the payer gets more separated from the actual payment process: credit cards, automated tollbooths, and further open-road tolling have all been shown to significantly (statistically) correlate to higher pri…

On the other hand, simpler taxes would lead to less expensive tax filing process. You don't need to buy an updated software, pay a professional or spend some hours - if not days - of your life doing something like that. Are you sure people should keep this inconvenience as a reminder of government expenses?

Believe me, I would love a simpler system, if not only for my own life but because the rent-seeking of Intuit et al is infuriating. Though I think almost any tax increase would dwarf the marginal reduction of filing process price (and probably time for many too).

What I wanted to specifically notr is that this is also an effect I think it valid for Norquist to point out, not only that treating unintentional tax evasion reduction as a tax hike, which I think is a silly argument.

Re: Stanford Professor Loses Political Battle To Simplify Tax Filing Process

#352

Post by riemannzeta »

albinofrenchy wrote: post #89
riemannzeta wrote: post #68

I wish there were more information about what, specifically, the pilot program included. The main detail I got from the story is that the tax returns were pre-filled with income information. I think that's useful, but I see no reason to expect a priori that the government would end up doing a better job with that than the private companies (like Intuit and H&R Block) whose revenue depends on doing that well. The comm…

Intuit and HR block are a bunch of crooks. They have lobbied for a variety of anti-tax payer causes. Namely stuff like: https://psmag.com/h-r-block-and-intuit-are-still-lobbying-to... . There is a really good reason to think that the government would do a better job -- most peoples tax situation is dead simple. Even if H&R block found deductions every once and a while that the IRS didn't -- which I doubt would happen…

I don't have a strong feeling about the statistics here. But I guess a $1,000 mistake on 1 in 5 of all returns does a little unlikely. Bigger mistakes on fewer returns also seems unlikely since the higher the bracket, the less likely you're relying on any default or software.

But I take the point that H&R Block and Intuit could simply start from the filled out returns provided by the gov't. Harder to understand their objections given that.

Re: Stanford Professor Loses Political Battle To Simplify Tax Filing Process

#353

Post by nocman »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #244
MaysonL wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why the government borrows the SS and Medicare tax payments to use on other stuff and puts IOUs in the SS and Medicare trust funds.

The US government lends itself SS and Medicare funds because there is no safer asset class than US treasuries.

"The US government lends itself SS and Medicare funds"

And that should have NEVER been legal. That money should have stayed in the funds. Any growth from those funds should still be in the funds. If they had not effectively stolen the money for other uses, those programs would not be in the mess they are in now.

Re: Stanford Professor Loses Political Battle To Simplify Tax Filing Process

#354

Post by riemannzeta »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #183
riemannzeta wrote: post #68

I wish there were more information about what, specifically, the pilot program included. The main detail I got from the story is that the tax returns were pre-filled with income information. I think that's useful, but I see no reason to expect a priori that the government would end up doing a better job with that than the private companies (like Intuit and H&R Block) whose revenue depends on doing that well. The comm…

> I think that's useful, but I see no reason to expect a priori that the government would end up doing a better job with that than the private companies (like Intuit and H&R Block) whose revenue depends on doing that well. Intuit and H&R Block could of course _still_ provide their services if they happen to be so accurate. In the past, I've used Turbotax only to receive corrections from the IRS (and by the way, the I…

You're right about the reform saving work and about it being possible for H&R Block and Intuit to offer their services anyway even after this reform. That's true. I just didn't see how that makes the code itself any more complex. But clearly they do benefit from that complexity in general.

Re: Stanford Professor Loses Political Battle To Simplify Tax Filing Process

#355

Post by nocman »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #190
quadrangle wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, zero FEDERAL income tax but most of those pay for SS, Medicare, and state taxes. Those in a lump sum vs withholdings would still be a different experience.

That's not withholding though (as the parent referred to; withholding towards your federal income tax bill); as you mention, that's payroll taxes, which you're going to get in retirement back as entitlements. Consider what would happen if the IRS was efficient enough (through these automated tax accounting systems) to not get an interest free loan from working America for an entire year (ie dynamically modifying ever…

"which you're going to get in retirement back as entitlements."

I doubt it. By the time I retire I expect that SS will be bankrupt. It has been going further down that road for years, and I don't see anything stopping the train.

Re: Stanford Professor Loses Political Battle To Simplify Tax Filing Process

#356

Post by ZoeZoeBee »

scythe wrote: post #146
cwkoss wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decentralization of power. For example, I'd love to see a progressive tax rate for corporations: companies' tax rates would be based on total revenue or profits. ex. If your company earns less than $50k/year, no taxes, 10% tax rate up to 250k, 20% up to $1M, 40% up to 10M, 50% on earnings over $10M. This would provide a strong incentive to only maintain a large corporation if the value of your economy of scale exceed…

IIRC this is the situation (or with a slightly different mechanism such as regulations affecting only large companies) in e.g. France and some other European countries, but an unintended consequence is that the ownership structure of large corporations becomes complex and usually spread across multiple countries, such as the infamous tax-avoidance strategies used by IKEA. This creates a barrier to entry that makes la…

You cherry picked an industry only a few decades old for your American Companies. If you look at established industries the largest companies are more than a century old as well, in auto GM and Ford have 3 times the revenue of BASF and more than twice as many employees, each. For comparison of the companies you listed, Amazon's revenue last year was $133 Billion compared to GM's $166 Billion.

The US's largest chemical company, fairly close in size to BASF, is Dow Chemical, also more than a century old

Re: Stanford Professor Loses Political Battle To Simplify Tax Filing Process

#357

Post by cookiecaper »

paulmd wrote: post #297
cookiecaper wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turns out that people want to pay less tax. You say this like it's unexpected. Most people are not going to have personal concerns over a pre-filled return as long as they are confident that they can modify it without repercussions. They may oppose it ideologically, on the basis that the government should experience as much friction as possible in its efforts to fleece the populace. Such an ideological position is a…

> They may oppose it ideologically, on the basis that the government should experience as much friction as possible in its efforts to fleece the populace. Such an ideological position is a valid reason to oppose this change. Tax evasion is not a valid ideological policy. Tax minimization, fine, everyone is entitled to deduct as much as the tax code allows. Tax evasion is crossing the line into crime. That's literally…

It's not tax evasion. People comply with the law, they just want it to be as difficult/expensive as possible for the government to continue the program.

>If you don't like the tax policy, leave. It's part of the social contract - find somewhere to live where you agree with the social contract.

lol? This attitude is the antithesis of democracy. In democracies, we say, "If you don't like it, contact your representatives and organize some peaceful, lawful opposition, and you may convince enough people to change it."

And indeed, it appears that's exactly what the people of California did when they didn't like this proposal, and of course, rather than admit defeat, the other side blames a corporation that dared to exercise its rights.

I don't know what it is with HN lately, but a lot of these really vapid, myopic memes have been invading the political threads here. I didn't make it to HN until right after Obama was elected, so maybe this is just how it is when Republicans are in power? The "threat" becomes more credible, resentment becomes more palpable, and it's get taken out on the users on the board?

Re: Stanford Professor Loses Political Battle To Simplify Tax Filing Process

#358

Post by [deleted] »

ThomPete wrote: post #294
cookiecaper wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, what works in Europe is not necessarily portable. We could just as easily pick things that are better about the U.S. and badger Europeans about why they're not doing it that way when "it is plainly working fine". Second, everyone attempts to cast every policy decision they dislike as evidence of corruption, chicanery, etc., but I don't think that's typically the case. The fact that a corporation and an elected…

Im not badgering anyone i just know as a european luving in the us that it doesent have to be that difficult.

[deleted]

Re: Stanford Professor Loses Political Battle To Simplify Tax Filing Process

#359

Post by logfromblammo »

avar wrote: post #110

This whole thread is full of comments from people who obviously haven't read the article / listened to the podcast in question[1]. Joseph Bankman proposed ReadyReturn in California, which is the kind of tax return pretty much the entirety of the rest of the western world uses. I.e. instead of an empty return, it's pre-filled in with the details the government knows anyway. This vastly simplifies things for most peopl…

The taxes I find most burdensome are those that take from me my time, rather than my money.

Forced bureaucratic form-filling is thus the most burdensome tax of all.

Grover Norquist can go stick his head in a pig... then stick the pig in a hydraulic press.

Re: Stanford Professor Loses Political Battle To Simplify Tax Filing Process

#360

Post by lazyant »

Sending taxes in the US by mail was unnerving for me, I don't know if things have changed but basically you put the envelope in the mail box and then .. you don't know, no receipt from the IRS, nothing. What happens if the envelope is lost? In all the countries I've lived you submit your taxes and you get and instant receipt or acknowledgement.
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