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New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

nytimes.com

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Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#111

Post by solatic »

Mythanar wrote: post #39

I highly suspect it is plain cheaper (and more convenient) to just subsidize private car rides for disabled people than making entire transit infrastructure in huge city to account for them. Better yet, take the money that government would otherwise spend on building all the wheelchair accomodations, and just distribute that between wheelchair users. I am sure many of them would prefer that over subway improvements w…

Plain cheaper, sure. But the government isn't a for-profit corporation. One of the central policy themes of the last few decades is increasing inclusivity, that the mainstreaming of marginalized people isn't solely for their direct benefit but also to increase their visibility in the eyes of the majority and as such build awareness and empathy.

Segregationist policy is un-American.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#112

Post by [deleted] »

ardit33 wrote: post #45
Mythanar wrote: post #39

I highly suspect it is plain cheaper (and more convenient) to just subsidize private car rides for disabled people than making entire transit infrastructure in huge city to account for them. Better yet, take the money that government would otherwise spend on building all the wheelchair accomodations, and just distribute that between wheelchair users. I am sure many of them would prefer that over subway improvements w…

The thing with accessibility elevators is it just not people in wheel chair that benefit from them. Elderly people, people that have sports injury and can't climb stairs, having groceries, or kids and strollers etc, etc... Even in the sidewalks, the lips of the sidewalks that slope towards the street in intersections, it is just not people with wheelchairs that benefit from them, but anybody with carrying a stroller,…

[deleted]

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#113

Post by Daishiman »

refurb wrote: post #77
astrodust wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insanity? That's dirt cheap . Think about how much mechanical complexity goes into each door, how it has multiple motors, servos, linear actuators and such. It has to be safe when closed, and it has to be safe when opened, it can't spontaneously shut in someone's face or pin them in the middle. It needs multiple sensors that can handle being exposed to a lot of wear and tear. It needs to operate for years on end with…

Sorry, but $20K per door is still ridiculous. This is not new technology, automatically operated doors are used in many different settings. It's pure gov't waste to pay that much. It would be wasteful if it was 1/4 that much.

It's a lot, but it's objectively not ridiculous.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#114

Post by closeparen »

ardit33 wrote: post #45
Mythanar wrote: post #39

I highly suspect it is plain cheaper (and more convenient) to just subsidize private car rides for disabled people than making entire transit infrastructure in huge city to account for them. Better yet, take the money that government would otherwise spend on building all the wheelchair accomodations, and just distribute that between wheelchair users. I am sure many of them would prefer that over subway improvements w…

The thing with accessibility elevators is it just not people in wheel chair that benefit from them. Elderly people, people that have sports injury and can't climb stairs, having groceries, or kids and strollers etc, etc... Even in the sidewalks, the lips of the sidewalks that slope towards the street in intersections, it is just not people with wheelchairs that benefit from them, but anybody with carrying a stroller,…

They conditions in station elevators are usually such that I could not imagine using one if it wasn't physically required.

Underground station bathrooms, if they were ever built, have been locked down since 9/11. Elevators have substituted as a private, out-of-the-way place to attract the worst of the worst in terms of piss, shit, and homeless people in various stages of crisis. Kind of degrading that we expect/require people with disabilities to use them, really.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#115

Post by AdamJacobMuller »

potatolicious wrote: post #63
Mythanar wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ParaTransit specifically is a non-profit organization. "Non-profit" and "incentives" generally don't mix well. Better service would require paying market rates - by the city, or partly by the city. And it'd still be cheaper than building accessibility over existing subway infrastructure. You make a very good point that disability is not binary; there is an entire spectrum from Michael Phelps to Steven Hawking. In som…

ParaTransit does not operate vehicles themselves - ParaTransit is simply a program that purchases these services from private, for-profit operators (like, say, Uber), and manages eligibility checks as well as payment to providers for rides delivered. > "Better service would require paying market rates - by the city, or partly by the city." This is what happens. The riders themselves pay the "regular" transit fare of…

> The small size of the customer base also means drivers spend much more time than usual traveling to a pickup.

Wouldn't a service like Uber avoid this issue? The cost for a disabled persons Uber ride won't be significantly above the cost for my Uber ride. While the cost of a dedicated service, per ride, will be significantly higher.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#116

Post by djrogers »

astrodust wrote: post #59
djrogers wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

edit - thought we were still talking about a simple low wall or gate, not the floor to ceiling glass in the GP post. leaving below for posterity.. > on the order of >$1M per platform That's insanity! Over $1M for something every amusement park has for every ride? Lemme guess, these one have to be engineered to the point of 'impossible to fail' and installed by the employees of municipal cronies at 3x fair wages? Talk…

Insanity? That's dirt cheap . Think about how much mechanical complexity goes into each door, how it has multiple motors, servos, linear actuators and such. It has to be safe when closed, and it has to be safe when opened, it can't spontaneously shut in someone's face or pin them in the middle. It needs multiple sensors that can handle being exposed to a lot of wear and tear. It needs to operate for years on end with…

It occurs to one that elevator doors are every bit as complex as what you ecan scribe and have been doing their job for over half a century at a cost of far less than that.

But really, you don't even need a door - a simple gate like on a ride at Disneyland, or heck even the gates at the station entrance would do nicely.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#117

Post by djrogers »

randyrand wrote: post #57
djrogers wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your solution, while logical and seemingly full of common sense, is orthagonal to the regulatory and statutory solutions put in place in this country.

When people think of better solutions, regulations often change. For example, there used to be a law in chicago that saloons needed to have a place to tie up at least 10 horse. That law quickly became outdated when the next best thing, the car, came around.

Oh they should - I just don't have any expectation that ADA compliance regulations will change to the extent this would require in my lifetime.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#118

Post by morsch »

Mythanar wrote: post #50
cujo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I buy this as a viable alternative. The first problem that pops into my head is transportation for disabled people who are visiting the city or that commute in for whatever reason. Providing them access to the disabled-taxi-program is problematic.

How so? Order Uber/Lyft ride, send a CC receipt to NYC gov with a disability proof. Get money back. Any complications I am missing?

You think visitors to a city will put up with the bureaucratic interaction you describe to recover 20 bucks? Might as well not have it.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#119

Post by Proof »

ed_balls wrote: post #66
matthewmacleod wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that it's not just people in wheelchairs who benefit from accessibility though. The elderly, injured infirm, people with small children etc. also find accessibility helpful. Modern accessibility policy is focused in a large part around allowing people with accessibility requirement to live as normal a life as possible. It's not going to change overnight, but by making sure that all new construction and refur…

And also the delivery of goods.

In Finland, everything is wheelchair-friendly from our Helsinki metro, to trains, to buses. I am kinda shocked to read Americans think it's not important to allocate the money to enable those with limitations to live their lives as freely as they, the able-bodied do. The mentality "it does not apply to me, why should I fine two fucks?" is all too common in the American ethos. Quite pathetic really.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#120

Post by GabrielF00 »

Proof wrote: post #119
ed_balls wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also the delivery of goods.

In Finland, everything is wheelchair-friendly from our Helsinki metro, to trains, to buses. I am kinda shocked to read Americans think it's not important to allocate the money to enable those with limitations to live their lives as freely as they, the able-bodied do. The mentality "it does not apply to me, why should I fine two fucks?" is all too common in the American ethos. Quite pathetic really.

The Helsinki Metro was built in 1982 and has 17 stations, of which 6 are underground. The New York City subway system has 472 stations, almost all of which are either underground or above grade. It was first opened in 1904. The difference in cost and complexity of providing universally accessible service is massive.
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