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Chase had ads on 400k sites, then on just 5k, with same results

nytimes.com

21–30 of 156 posts

Re: Chase had ads on 400k sites, then on just 5k, with same results

#21
post #10

This is definitely an interesting tactic, but this is a pretty poor article. #1. Chase is claiming performance hasn't been affected, but it has only been a couple days since they made changes. With display you can't measure performance in only a few days. #2. The author confuses the number of sites with the number of impressions. Chase is buying the same number of impressions - if everyone else followed this strategy…

1 - agreed. A few days is nothing.

2 - The exchange would likely make more because the increased auction pressure from the same amount of advertisers trying to buy the same amount of volume (same demand) on a smaller list of websites (lower supply) would lead to higher prices being paid to show ads.

Re: Chase had ads on 400k sites, then on just 5k, with same results

#22

What's the shape of the long tail distribution? Does the top 5000 get 99% of the traffic?

Typical pareto rule I've found. It'd be closer to 99% if all of their supply was sold into the exchanges, but most sites have a much more complicated waterfall to clear out their supply such that the premium inventory gets direct sold or sold into a private marketplace and only the remnant inventory goes into public exchanges.

Re: Chase had ads on 400k sites, then on just 5k, with same results

#23
It's crazy how many apologists there are for Big Web Advertising!

So many commenters are giving the customer a hard time for realizing, "99% of my budget is spent on zero value, i.e. fraud."

The biggest lie the online advertising industry has sold is aggregate statistics. Of course a handful of traffic sources convert massively while the supermajority (99%) don't convert at all. Advertising intermediaries rely on the statistical mean to hide all the garbage in the gold. It should surprise no one that for the vast majority of customers, like Chase, conversion as a function of source is skewed.

I suspect too many ad tech companies rely on the ignorance of their customers to make money. They monetize the basic math of "if it's more than break-even, it's working"—in other words, their objective is to take as much ad budget as possible while still delivering a profitable conversion for the customer. By simple math, ad tech uses garbage inventory until the customer's profit is close to but above zero. It works, and you'd have to be a real blowhard to believe that it's not how the ad tech ecosystem works.

That ad-tech does this by laundering e-mail spam, blogspam and other forms of spam into Google AdWords: that's the real fraud. All those Googlers then go on to pretend like it's not happening.

I mean, what 400,000 sites do you think Chase was advertising on? Ones that really have to do with banking? Or just ones that, by some idiotic metric, have a keyword that ".equals('banking')"?

I would love for someone at Google's direct navigation ads (or whatever ridiculously obscuring name they're called now) to come out and say how "Nobody clicks twice [on spam ads] by accident." It's like they inhabit a make-believe universe. The ad exchanges aren't ignorant: they're facilitating the massive fraud of their own customers.

Re: Chase had ads on 400k sites, then on just 5k, with same results

#25
post #4

> Surprisingly, the company is seeing little change in the cost of impressions or the visibility of its ads on the internet, she said. If/when other companies switch to this strategy, they’ll all be competing for less inventory and cost will go up accordingly.

At the same time good content providers will be paid more. So overall it is a good thing for the web. Content farming won't be worth much either.

I'm not so sure, but I would love to be proven wrong.

The issue I'm seeing is that there are many orders or magnitude more potential content providers out there than people are willing to manually validate and white-list.

This might lead us to a situation where only the largest content providers/creators still get access to ad money which in turn will make it impossible for creators targeting a more niche audience to still have a chance in the market.

Case in point: lately I'm totally into science videos on YouTube. From the more mainstream "Space Time" to the now-not-as-niche-as-in-2012 "Cody's Lab".

While the latter doesn't share the former's production values nor budget, it's YouTube ad revenue that allows both to exist and to me personally, both provide equal value.

It concerns me that in the future, if this trend continues, only one of the two will have a chance to survive.

Re: Chase had ads on 400k sites, then on just 5k, with same results

#26
post #12
post #7

> At some point, a human is going to take a look. I recently saw a talk by Foster Provost, a big ML guy at NYU. The main points of his talk were that using fine-grained behavioral data (like browsing history) is better than demographics (at least in his context: predicting ad lift), and he proposed a way to interpret the model (somewhat). I left feeling disappointed. His system for interpretation was super post-hoc a…

It's not being stupid it's designed that way. "Gee that'd suck if somebody else bought ads for all your organic keywords. Sorry we don't have a better way to prevent that, you should bid on those." Even if Google did provide a provision for blocking ads for certain keywords (and they do have one), who controls that system? Amazon is also a bad example since many 3rd parties affiliated with - and driving traffic to -…

Each individual advertiser on Google can provide "negative keywords," which are keywords that the advertiser would like to make sure they never show for.

Yes, you're right that buying one's own brand keywords is a defensive move. The idea that Google would show a relevant ad for a competing e-commerce site when a user is searching for "Amazon" isn't scandalous, it's the business model.

Re: Chase had ads on 400k sites, then on just 5k, with same results

#27
post #2

Edited for elaboration: The article doesn't mention the precise methodology for reaching the 5000 sites number, other than some human filtering being involved. The precise wording of another section is also vague, the 'cost of an impressions' could mean either their total Internet marketing expenditure is the same (thus 395000 sites were largely ineffective and merely exposed them to risk and complexity) OR that they…

The real question is how long has this been going on? I've seen these campaigns go on for years with worldwide clicks completely unchecked wasting a ton of $$. You can't trust automatic site placement but if you do, analytics will identify it quickly to exclude the loser sites.

This is just complete mis-management of paid media. Fire the agency or internal people for stupidity..

Re: Chase had ads on 400k sites, then on just 5k, with same results

#29

It's crazy how many apologists there are for Big Web Advertising! So many commenters are giving the customer a hard time for realizing, "99% of my budget is spent on zero value, i.e. fraud." The biggest lie the online advertising industry has sold is aggregate statistics. Of course a handful of traffic sources convert massively while the supermajority (99%) don't convert at all. Advertising intermediaries rely on the…

It's hard to tell from the article, but I don't think there was any change in Chase's advertising spend. My interpretation is that they are spending the same amount, but restricting bidding to a whitelist of sites.

If so, the fact that they don't see an impact in # of impressions means more about the ad exchange's bidding system and inelastic demand (or lack thereof) for inventory on those whitelisted sites.

I don't think this has anything to do with fraud.

Re: Chase had ads on 400k sites, then on just 5k, with same results

#30
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time good content providers will be paid more. So overall it is a good thing for the web. Content farming won't be worth much either.

I'm not so sure, but I would love to be proven wrong. The issue I'm seeing is that there are many orders or magnitude more potential content providers out there than people are willing to manually validate and white-list. This might lead us to a situation where only the largest content providers/creators still get access to ad money which in turn will make it impossible for creators targeting a more niche audience to…

Good content can be many things.
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