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New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

nytimes.com

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Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#51

Post by randyrand »

leonatan wrote: post #44
randyrand wrote: post #42

Given that 1 in 10,000 people in NYC are in wheelchairs, I really think it would be orders of magnitude more cost effective for the government to pay for disabled persons cab fares than to make public transit accessible. Has anyone run the numbers?

Would there also be interest paid for time lost in traffic? New York roads are tight and always busy, something the public transit system is supposed to workaround.

I think free fare and door to door service would be pretty good already.

Paying them for time lost in traffic seems like it's going too far. After all, its not the taxpayers fault they are in a wheelchair. We don't need to compensate them.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#52

Post by DanBC »

Tokkemon wrote: post #21
popopobobobo wrote: post #2

I think MTA should also consider putting a barrier on the edge of the platform. So that we won't get dozens of people being pushed off to the rails.

6 people died from being struck by trains in a year (I think that was 2015 they pushed in their advertisements). There were about 1.76 billion rides in the same period. As much as it's a feel-good measure, there is no conceivable way to justify the incredible expense of platform doors for such a small number of instances. And the dirty secret is most of those are suicides. If they can't kill themselves on a train, th…

> If they can't kill themselves on a train, they'll just go to the nearest bridge.

That's not true. Method substitution takes years.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#53

Post by davidf18 »

virtuexru wrote: post #15

Yet they are slated to raise the prices again next year. It's already $2.75 for a regular swipe. FeelsBadMan.

Less than $120 / month (or about $30 per week) unlimited subway/bus pass is really quite a bargain. Perhaps the best bargain in NYC.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#54

Post by matthewmacleod »

Mythanar wrote: post #39

I highly suspect it is plain cheaper (and more convenient) to just subsidize private car rides for disabled people than making entire transit infrastructure in huge city to account for them. Better yet, take the money that government would otherwise spend on building all the wheelchair accomodations, and just distribute that between wheelchair users. I am sure many of them would prefer that over subway improvements w…

Remember that it's not just people in wheelchairs who benefit from accessibility though. The elderly, injured infirm, people with small children etc. also find accessibility helpful.

Modern accessibility policy is focused in a large part around allowing people with accessibility requirement to live as normal a life as possible. It's not going to change overnight, but by making sure that all new construction and refurbishments are accessible, over time the situation will improve. The only quibble is over the extent of funding that will be made available.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#55

Post by jessaustin »

It's certainly past time that some tiny fraction of the billions of dollars spent on accessibility were spent subsidizing modes of travel that don't require such bland and dehumanized environs. Elevators on medium-sized buildings (and subways) are a nuisance, in that they make most of the population less healthy in exchange for 0.7% of the population being able to explore every nook. If the law hadn't cemented handicapped rights to use dated technology, many people already would be using something capable of climbing stairs. Yes, that "something" would probably cost more than a wheelchair that could have been manufactured in 1950. Since the mobility of the handicapped is in society's interest, society can subsidize it, rather than mandating that brick-and-mortar businesses do so.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#56

Post by potatolicious »

Mythanar wrote: post #39

I highly suspect it is plain cheaper (and more convenient) to just subsidize private car rides for disabled people than making entire transit infrastructure in huge city to account for them. Better yet, take the money that government would otherwise spend on building all the wheelchair accomodations, and just distribute that between wheelchair users. I am sure many of them would prefer that over subway improvements w…

> "I highly suspect it is plain cheaper (and more convenient) to just subsidize private car rides for disabled people"

This is true, and also why NYC has ParaTransit for disabled people, which amounts to an on-demand car/minibus service that is paid for by the transit agency.

The service levels are pretty terrible, though, because it turns out the private operators that actually provision these rides don't have a lot of incentive to go through the costs of operating accessible vehicles to address such a small market. Wait times for a vehicle are extremely long.

More importantly, disability and motion-handicaps are not binary, nor are they always permanent. There exist a large number of people who have difficulty climbing stairs who are not wheelchair-bound (see: the elderly, the pregnant, people coming from the airport...), and there exist a significant number of people who temporarily suffer from motion handicaps, whose handicaps are too temporary to be enrolled in ParaTransit (see: a guy with a leg cast).

Accessible stations and vehicles help these people also, not just the stereotype of the permanent wheelchair-bound person. The reality is that accessiblity features in our infrastructure benefit a lot more than those who are permanently or completely handicapped.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#57

Post by randyrand »

djrogers wrote: post #41
Mythanar wrote: post #39

I highly suspect it is plain cheaper (and more convenient) to just subsidize private car rides for disabled people than making entire transit infrastructure in huge city to account for them. Better yet, take the money that government would otherwise spend on building all the wheelchair accomodations, and just distribute that between wheelchair users. I am sure many of them would prefer that over subway improvements w…

Your solution, while logical and seemingly full of common sense, is orthagonal to the regulatory and statutory solutions put in place in this country.

When people think of better solutions, regulations often change.

For example, there used to be a law in chicago that saloons needed to have a place to tie up at least 10 horse. That law quickly became outdated when the next best thing, the car, came around.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#58

Post by pinaceae »

Vienna retro-fitted every subway station with wheelchair and stroller compatible elevators.

Don't discount the latter, so much easier for parents to use the subway that way.

It totally can be done. The US carved off a slice of every sidewalk to allow for ramps for wheelchairs, nationwide.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#59

Post by astrodust »

djrogers wrote: post #46
astrodust wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They investigated installing them here (Toronto) but the cost per station is pretty high, on the order of >$1M per platform. When you multiply that across a system as large as NYC that's easily half a billion dollars. I'm not sure how many ads you have to sell to recoup the cost, but it's probably a lot.

edit - thought we were still talking about a simple low wall or gate, not the floor to ceiling glass in the GP post. leaving below for posterity.. > on the order of >$1M per platform That's insanity! Over $1M for something every amusement park has for every ride? Lemme guess, these one have to be engineered to the point of 'impossible to fail' and installed by the employees of municipal cronies at 3x fair wages? Talk…

Insanity? That's dirt cheap. Think about how much mechanical complexity goes into each door, how it has multiple motors, servos, linear actuators and such. It has to be safe when closed, and it has to be safe when opened, it can't spontaneously shut in someone's face or pin them in the middle.

It needs multiple sensors that can handle being exposed to a lot of wear and tear. It needs to operate for years on end with, ideally, very little maintenance. It has to endure being buffeted by the forces of the train entering and leaving the station which exerts significant strain on any hinges or track mechanisms.

So you need a pair of these for each set of doors on the train, and if each car has three doors, and you have eight cars, that's 48 doors.

That leaves you with only $20,800 per door. You still need to build the walls themselves and you need to have this installed by the right technicians.

Do the math, don't bitch just because it sounds expensive.

Re: New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

#60

Post by cameldrv »

pinaceae wrote: post #58

Vienna retro-fitted every subway station with wheelchair and stroller compatible elevators. Don't discount the latter, so much easier for parents to use the subway that way. It totally can be done. The US carved off a slice of every sidewalk to allow for ramps for wheelchairs, nationwide.

It's simpler in Vienna though because they have a proof of payment system. You just need one elevator to the platform. In NY, you need one to the turnstiles, and then another one to the platform.
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