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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#341

Post by luca_ing »

junto wrote: post #271
gambiting wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not British but I live in the UK - I have based my entire life here, family, house, job, car, everything - and a year ago, I would have never considered leaving, this is my home. But right now, I'm weighting my options. I'm a huge believer in the European Union, so why would I want to live in a country that's not in it? And increasingly, I think the answer is - I wouldn't. So although I haven't started packing ye…

I'm in the opposite situation, living in Germany as a British national. Since the EU is likely to respond in kind to any actions it takes out against EU nationals in the UK, I'm probably going to face the same in return, and it scares the crap out of me. I've built my life over here, have a family and I really don't want to be forced back to the UK away from my children. At present I'm considering taking out German n…

> I'm not keen on being forced to give up my British citizenship as a result. Being British is a core part of my identity.

I hear you.

I have two nationalities (German and Italian). If Germany would force me to choose between them, I'd probably remain German for practical reasons -- but at the same time, it would greatly alienate me from the German state. As opposed to what politicians claim: that it would strengthen my integration into German society.

Being part of two nations, two peoples, is just fundamentally who I am, and I insist on governments acknowledging it.

Fun fact: my children have three nationalities.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#342

Post by zekkius »

rayiner wrote: post #308
folli wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely see the advantages of having common standards, tariff agreements etc. to make trade across borders easier (i.e. something akin to the European Economic Area). I'm however also a proponent of federalism, because I believe that for a democracy to truly work it is necessary that the people still feel responsible for their votes and their decisions. This is something which I'm missing in centralised and unit…

What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Throughout history, discrete groups have waged wars of independence to ensure that they can have a government that reflects their shared history, culture, and values. My family is from Bangladesh, which fought a war to separate from Pakistan over cultural/linguistic differences. In another example, Israel is engaged in an existential b…

Yes, humans are inclined to form tribes and to fear the other, just like our primitive ancestors. It's little reason to justify such division today, and especially not to participate in mass murder to achieve it.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#343

Post by nicky0 »

ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

> which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers

I often see this kind of sweeping statement here on HN as if the consequences of Brexit are an already an established fact. How do you substantiate these predicitons? Are you aware of the term "project fear"[0]?

0:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear_(British_politics...

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#344

Post by leovonl »

It's amusing to read all these calls for a more democratic EU, specially when comparisons with the USA are made.

EU membership is voluntary, you can leave if you want. What would happen if an USA state decided to leave? Check the history books.

Truly democratic nations respect self-determination principles. In this sense, USA is closer to the authoritarianism of Spain than to democracies like Canada or the UK itself.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#345

Post by JetSetWilly »

csdreamer7 wrote: post #259
JetSetWilly wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France aided the UK and was the UK's best ally during the campaign. They declared an arms embargo against Argentina, they allowed use of french controlled ports in West Africa, they provided lots of information about Exocet missiles and they aided British intelligence in preventing Argentina obtaining more of them. Our biggest "frenemies" during the Falklands were the USA and Israel. Israel were selling them arms (or…

> USA was neutral (with lots of Argentinian sympathy) until their hand was forced. Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher: A Political Marriage would disagree with you. Reagan wanted to keep the USSR out of Argentina so the public line was neutrality even with Thatcher pushing him to do otherwise. Behind the scenes the US provided intelligence to Britain.

Fair enough, I suppose I overstated that!

The USA was, at least at first, divided on the issue and didn't exactly come swingeing down on the British side - many members of the Reagan administration thought that aiding the UK would hamper their anti-communist efforts in South America generally and I guess as hegemon they just wanted the whole inconvenient problem between two US allies to go away.

Later when it became clear that the UK was going to war, that was that. They did support the British position but didn't get entangled publicly for their own reasons, not least there's no point getting involved if your ally can take care of it anyway.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#346

Post by Malician »

topbanana wrote: post #33
gambiting wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not British but I live in the UK - I have based my entire life here, family, house, job, car, everything - and a year ago, I would have never considered leaving, this is my home. But right now, I'm weighting my options. I'm a huge believer in the European Union, so why would I want to live in a country that's not in it? And increasingly, I think the answer is - I wouldn't. So although I haven't started packing ye…

Getting a visa isn't so onerous is it? Compared with the hassle of upping your roots and moving your family?

Recent events in my country (the US) have shown that visas don't really mean much of anything - here one day, gone the next. Most times they will be fine, but you can't trust them.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#347

Post by CPLX »

enraged_camel wrote: post #319
CPLX wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not. The American states were a loosely organized confederacy at outset as well. India has multiple languages. And of course the long history of empires, like the Ottoman, or Spanish control of Latin America. Yes they rise and fall, but often over the course of centuries and well out of the observational abilities of the human lifespan. There's nothing inevitable about the EU, in either direction.

America, as well as all empires in history, were created and then kept together via military force. In contrast, the EU started out peacefully as a trade organization. Membership in it is purely voluntary. This makes it quite unique.

The original decision by the various states to join together was not at all accomplished by armed conquest.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#348

Post by Joeri »

leovonl wrote: post #344

It's amusing to read all these calls for a more democratic EU, specially when comparisons with the USA are made. EU membership is voluntary, you can leave if you want. What would happen if an USA state decided to leave? Check the history books. Truly democratic nations respect self-determination principles. In this sense, USA is closer to the authoritarianism of Spain than to democracies like Canada or the UK itself.

To be fair, some of the EU leaders have made it clear that they intend to make the brexit so costly on britain that no one else dare leave. So, it remains to be seen how voluntary EU membership is.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#349

Post by luca_ing »

wayn3 wrote: post #43
topbanana wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting a visa isn't so onerous is it? Compared with the hassle of upping your roots and moving your family?

its just an instance of the classic overly emotional "these people dont want me here so fuck them, who are they to ask me to acquire a formality". OP could just as well seek naturalization if hes actually spent his entire life there.

As a binational person, I can tell you that this is a much more emotional issue than you believe.

Being asked to leave your citizenship behind isn't just some paperwork, it's a very big blow to your identity. In my case, it would have almost no practical effect (I'm European either way), but it would be a huge issue.

It's kinda like marrying. You may claim that it's just paperwork (and I'm sure some people really feel that way), but I felt there was something more about it. Sure, I had been with my now-wife for eight years at that point, but being the act of marrying made it much more Serious (yes, capital S). If you've ever been married, maybe you can relate to that feeling.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#350

Post by [deleted] »

Svip wrote: post #181
folli wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely see the advantages of having common standards, tariff agreements etc. to make trade across borders easier (i.e. something akin to the European Economic Area). I'm however also a proponent of federalism, because I believe that for a democracy to truly work it is necessary that the people still feel responsible for their votes and their decisions. This is something which I'm missing in centralised and unit…

But the EU does have a directly elected parliament? So where's the lack of democracy in the EU?

[deleted]
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