Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

gizmodo.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 154 posts

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#81

Post by jacquesm »

atomwaffel wrote: post #75
jacquesm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the chances of the Brexit process collapsing just collapsed themselves. The only way to do that was to not trigger Article 50.

Not quite: > the UK will be able to revoke its notification of article 50 but this must be “subject to conditions set by all EU27 so they cannot be used as a procedural device or abused in an attempt to improve the actual terms of the United Kingdom’s membership”. [1] So in short, remaining is less likely than ever but still possible. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/29/first-eu-re...

True, but May has (repeatedly) threatened to go out 'without a deal' if she can't get terms she likes.

The UK has to somehow bluff its way into a negotiation position and I fail to see how all these statements and laws are compatible with each other.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#82

Post by CaptainZapp »

jerf wrote: post #45
mdekkers wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is totally unrestricted immigration of low-skilled individuals that the government (and it's fair to say the British population) are opposed to. This may be the case. Brexit is the dumbest solution to that particular problem though.

Had any other solutions been made available, Brexit probably wouldn't be happening. The EU chose to not make solutions available and stuck it into a "take it or leave it" basket. It seems to me to be a recurring pattern with over-centralized government that they start using more and more of their power this way; you can see it in the US now too, for instance in the way the Trump administration is continuing to saber…

  The EU chose to not make solutions available and stuck it into a "take it or leave it" basket.
What do you suggest the EU should have done? Free movement is one of the cornerstones of the EU and pretty much not up for negootiation. This includes associated countries like Norway or Switzerland.

So I'm really curious: What, do you suggest, should the EU have offered?

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#83

Post by zumatic »

awjr wrote: post #66
CaptainZapp wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK could be officially outside of the EU but to the banks, universities and import-export companies EU cooperation is as much of a reality as ever. That's the wishful thinking so much projected by the brexiteers. And I believe they're very wrong. While London may remain a financial hub it will lose its importance. Multinational banks and insurances are alredy preparing to move entire departments to the continent.…

More interestingly cross border co-operation between engineering companies will become harder. For example a part for the BMW Mini crosses the channel 3 times before being fitted https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-c...

Was anyone else reminded of John Harvey-Jones versus Morgan, where he bawled them out for pushing a car chassis up and down a hill several times as part of their production line?

https://youtu.be/PtDA714SdgQ

Can't help thinking BMW might need to look at that anyway, regardless of Brexit.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#84

Post by CaptainZapp »

cabalamat wrote: post #68
brango wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll only let us back in the club if they choose to from now on [1]. Basically, they've left the door open for us to vote in a pro-EU party in the next general election and abandon the whole thing. That's why they won't agree a trade deal in the next 2 years. They're hoping, like me, that things will get sufficiently bad in the next 2 years the public gives a mandate to a pro-EU party, and the whole sorry mess can…

> They'll only let us back in the club if they choose to from now on I think this is basically correct. I also think that if, before the 2 years are up, the UK changes its mind about Brexit, the EU would be very likely to allow its membership to continue.

I very much hope this to be the case. I just don't see it happening in the current political climate in England.

England probably would have to be prepared to lose a number of privileges should that happen.

It would certainly be the best outcome of a very bad situation.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#85

Post by davidf18 »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #44
blowski wrote: post #4

A few anecdotes doesn't count as evidence. I voted for Remain, and hope very much that the Brexit process collapses and we end up staying in the EU. But I also don't want to spend the next 2 years being drip-fed poor quality articles about how we're going to hell in a handbasket.

If you want data not anecdotes, then it's early days but here you go: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/18/nhs-eu-nurse...

Don't you think that its strange that the UK can't train enough nurses (sisters) and has to import nurses from poorer countries?

I guess the nationwide (near) monopoly on healthcare, the National Health Service (NHS) will have to start paying market prices for nurses as well as start more training programs instead of relying on importing cheaper labor.

To say that there aren't enough Brits to do the nursing in a population of 60 million is ridiculous.

The elites in Britain (and perhaps the entire wealthier countries of the EU) basically didn't seem to care (and perhaps encouraged) the importation of labor to drive down market prices of labor both for untrained as well as trained labor. In the case of healthcare, it is simply a means for the government to pay less for healthcare than they would if there were a competitive market instead of their monopoly.

It wasn't absolutely necessary to have the free flow of labor as part of the EU trade agreement. For example, NAFTA between US, Canada, and Mexico does not allow for the free flow of labor, only the free flow of good. I can't think of any trade agreements that the US has with other countries that allows for the free flow of labor. The free flow of labor benefits elites (think professional hiring nannies, government running health services, companies running factories, firms running high tech needing software developers) to help depress wages. Now the elites of Britain will have to start paying market rates for their labor.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#86

Post by douche »

nl wrote: post #80
djmobley wrote: post #6

Foolish and premature. The UK government has not expressed any intention to restrict skilled immigration in industries facing skills shortages. It is totally unrestricted immigration of low-skilled individuals that the government (and it's fair to say the British population) are opposed to.

The UK government has not expressed any intention to restrict skilled immigration in industries facing skills shortages. That doesn't seem to be the case: Employers would have to pay a £1,000-a-year fee for every EU skilled worker they bring in after Brexit, under plans being considered by the Government. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-... or not: THE Prime Minister has denied the Governm…

So, they are asking businesses to pony up the equivalent of one Starbucks coffee per day for skilled immigrants? The horror!

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#87

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

jacquesm wrote: post #64
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, once that's done as far as I understand it there is no way back It seems that EU lawmaking bodies disagree with you: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-stop-ar...

That's contrary to this (but more recent, in fact, it isn't law right now): https://www.businessinsider.nl/uk-supreme-court-article-50-n... And I note that it requires unanimous agreement between all the other member states, which is a very rare thing. So a very thin maybe.

Same publication, today: http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-brexit-resolution-article-5...

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#88

Post by d4rti »

djmobley wrote: post #6

Foolish and premature. The UK government has not expressed any intention to restrict skilled immigration in industries facing skills shortages. It is totally unrestricted immigration of low-skilled individuals that the government (and it's fair to say the British population) are opposed to.

I have to ask if you have ever applied for a UK visa, because dealing with the Home Office for visas is very painful, and choosing to relocate now, with a reasonable expectation of having to go through that process I would consider to be rational.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#89

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

davidf18 wrote: post #85
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want data not anecdotes, then it's early days but here you go: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/18/nhs-eu-nurse...

Don't you think that its strange that the UK can't train enough nurses (sisters) and has to import nurses from poorer countries? I guess the nationwide (near) monopoly on healthcare, the National Health Service (NHS) will have to start paying market prices for nurses as well as start more training programs instead of relying on importing cheaper labor. To say that there aren't enough Brits to do the nursing in a popu…

> The elites in Britain basically didn't seem to care (and perhaps encouraged) the importation of labor to drive down market prices of labor both for untrained as well as trained labor

And you have hit on a basic truth there. A fair part of the vote to leave was because of economic hardship. A fair part of that is because of the perception of "people coming over here and working for less". But every employee has an employer. Government and business can do a lot to set industrial policy, starting with funding for education (for doctors, nurses etc), and minimum wage levels (for field & factory workers).

Emphasis on "can". They didn't.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#90

Post by fpp »

The Brexit is just one of key changes hitting the UK tech working / start-up / corporate environments in the moment.

Brexit, IP Act, changes to IR35 (in / out), the £ drop, announcements of major city firms to reduce staff by 30%+, slowing global economies (real not what statistics are telling), UK service price increases of 10% - 20% as seen in the last months or to come with e.g. electricity, IT and communication services in the next weeks.

All these contribute to a climate of uncertainty and making the UK less competitive.

I've been closely watching various areas of the IT contractor market for the last months - these are normally very good indicators how healthy the industry is / how positive or negative forward looking is.

In more than 15 years I have never seen these markets being as bad as they are in the moment.

This might all sound very gloomy, but if the UK government continues with their path as seen in the last months, they are burning the ground we all in the UK stand on.

Post reply on HN