I have a question for the anthropogenic climate change doubters and deniers out there. You say either that it is certain that human activity is not having a significant influence on the climate, or it is not certain whether or not it is. My question is, it there any sort of scientific evidence that might be discovered in the future that would lead you to change your mind, and if so what would it be? Or is you view si…
A troubling idea about climate change found new evidence in its favor
61–70 of 117 posts
Re: A troubling idea about climate change found new evidence in its favor
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
For most lukewarmists it is certain that humans (GHG emissions) are causing the global temperature to increase. But how much? About +0.5C since pre-industrial times. Everybody also understands there's some natural variation, year-to-year noise which is 20x greater than the human caused warming signal. The trend over the past century is +1.0C / century. Or +0.2C / decade in the second half. So lukewarmists believe hum…
>I think skeptics, lukewarmists, and alarmists are all interested in GMT through 2030 to get a better idea for how much warming we'll get this century. So in term of the question I asked, you are saying that skeptics and lukewarmists would change their minds if GMT went up significantly more than their present views predict? And is this something they explicitly state, and all of them? Also, I was directing my questi…
Yes, absolutely.
One thing which makes this seemingly completely empirical topic difficult though is the ~20x noise-to-signal ratio and the "red noise" inherent in the process. This means end points for the analysis make a huge difference. Both skeptics and alarmists will cherry-pick when they can, and will reflexively dismiss each others trend lines as cherry picked.
My view is the "two sides" act as the prosecution and defense in an adversarial courtroom. Neither should be expected to raise evidence or lines of reasoning which detract from their own agenda. And both will constantly try to get the other side's evidence thrown out, even if they know it would get the general public closer to the truth.
Re: A troubling idea about climate change found new evidence in its favor
#63I have a question for the anthropogenic climate change doubters and deniers out there. You say either that it is certain that human activity is not having a significant influence on the climate, or it is not certain whether or not it is. My question is, it there any sort of scientific evidence that might be discovered in the future that would lead you to change your mind, and if so what would it be? Or is you view si…
But on specifics, it would be good to get a clear answer to the question - how come CO2 concentration was much higher in several past periods and it didn't turn the Earth into a desert?
Re: A troubling idea about climate change found new evidence in its favor
#64I have a question for the anthropogenic climate change doubters and deniers out there. You say either that it is certain that human activity is not having a significant influence on the climate, or it is not certain whether or not it is. My question is, it there any sort of scientific evidence that might be discovered in the future that would lead you to change your mind, and if so what would it be? Or is you view si…
the long answer is that my skepticism comes from climate being a classic complexity issue where trying to isolate a single factor (carbon) as being the main forcing for climate change requires a lot of real evidence.
i'd turn the question back around on you by asking "why do you believe in CAGW?" when i asked myself that question (because i was like most people and believed the standard news reports before i tried to really understand it), i discovered two main pieces of observational data that were overwhelming for why the increased carbon is going to lead to run-away warming:
1. the correlation of atmospheric carbon and temperature in the geologic record (ice core samples and tree ring data). it's very clear looking at those records that atmospheric carbon and temperature are correlated. but, when i dug into it i found out that in the geologic record the temperature increase PRECEEDS atmospheric CO2 by hundreds of years. if we were going to infer causation by correlation, then it would have to be the other way around. so that strong piece of evidence turned out not to be actual evidence.
when i sought answers for this from the global warming alarmist scientists, what they had to say was "yes, it's true. what we know is that the temperature increases for some unknown reason, then carbon is released because of the temperature, which then causes the temperature to increase more and a positive feedback loop is created."
but, if this were really how it happened and co2 is the overwhelmingly main forcing for temperature increase, then why wasn't the planet already destroyed back when we had 10x+ the amount of carbon in the atmosphere than what we are doing today?
2. after #1 melted away, i realized that the strongest evidence for CAGW was rooted in the predictions of climate models. it wasn't being proven by geologic or current observations, so what do the models tell us?
well, the models are very interesting because they are mechanisms we use to try to understand a classic complexity problem. these are notoriously difficult problems to fully understand down to it's constituent components.
add on top of it the timeframes we are talking about with the models, and it becomes very difficult to understand it right now. the models predict noticeable temperature increase in the 100s of years timeframe, not in the decadal timeframe.
so to be able to actually observe the predictions of the models, we'd have to wait 100s of years.
so, i wondered if there were other things that the models predicted that were more in the annual/decadal timeframe that we could observe to be happening.
as it happens, the answer is yes. all models that predicted runaway warming due to the co2 greenhouse effect ALSO predicted a warming of the atmosphere at a greater rate than a warming of the surface. (which makes sense based on the theory)
so all we'd have to do, is show that the atmosphere is heating up at an accelerated rate than the surface, and that would be a significant data point.
but what we actually observe is the opposite. the surface temperature is increasing at a faster rate than the atmospheric temperature. so the observed data appears to be going against the theory.
now, to be clear, i don't disagree that the planet is warming. i'm just skeptical that an increase in co2 is the main culprit.
with that in mind, i'd love to hear other people's observational evidence that backs the theory up. that's what will convince me.
and to make it clear, what will not convince me are fear mongering about "what if the theory is right?!" or the quasi-religious appeals to authority by saying "all these smart people believe different than you."
i want predictions made by the theory that show observational corroboration (with, preferably, an elimination of other explanations for the outcome).
Re: A troubling idea about climate change found new evidence in its favor
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Calling people 'deniers' is an ad hominen attack that doesn't prove anything, and most importantly doesn't help change people's minds. This is true, but the people who are, in fact, deniers likely won't change their minds anyway and likely will not be alive long enough to see any undeniable evidence that could. It's the same thing with discussing religion, I learned long ago to keep my mouth shut about it when talk…
There are major costs associated with cutting carbon emmissions before we have better technology. That is why people are questioning the 'science' of global warming. If we as a species are wrong about global warming in either direction, that is a big problem.
But the technology has been rapidly getting more economical, and in some ways is now actually cheaper than fossil fuels (which also has many negative externalities of its own). And this has been happening only because there has been an enormous investment in renewable energy. The idea that the scientists all on their own will work for decades and come up with fully-ready technologies that then will be put into full production is just not how these things actually work.
Re: A troubling idea about climate change found new evidence in its favor
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
For a long time I was in the "we don't have enough information to make a conclusion" camp, and dismissed anyone "jumping" to conclusions as alarmist. This xkcd changed my mind: https://xkcd.com/1732/
Much as I like Randall Munroe and xkcd, I don't see any sources cited in that comic. I don't know that we know, precisely, how fucked we are yet, but I do think it's clear that humans are having an effect, and we know very convincing reasons for why we're having an effect, so we should work to reduce that effect regardless of whether we're fucked in 100 years if we continue this way, or if it will take 1000.
But how are we to make money then?! Do you want Elon Musk to keep all off it for himself? Why do you hate America?
Re: A troubling idea about climate change found new evidence in its favor
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
>I think skeptics, lukewarmists, and alarmists are all interested in GMT through 2030 to get a better idea for how much warming we'll get this century. So in term of the question I asked, you are saying that skeptics and lukewarmists would change their minds if GMT went up significantly more than their present views predict? And is this something they explicitly state, and all of them? Also, I was directing my questi…
> you are saying that skeptics and lukewarmists would change their minds if GMT went up significantly more than their present views predict? Yes, absolutely. One thing which makes this seemingly completely empirical topic difficult though is the ~20x noise-to-signal ratio and the "red noise" inherent in the process. This means end points for the analysis make a huge difference. Both skeptics and alarmists will cherry…
Re: A troubling idea about climate change found new evidence in its favor
#68I have a question for the anthropogenic climate change doubters and deniers out there. You say either that it is certain that human activity is not having a significant influence on the climate, or it is not certain whether or not it is. My question is, it there any sort of scientific evidence that might be discovered in the future that would lead you to change your mind, and if so what would it be? Or is you view si…
the short answer is "science," specifically "observation." the long answer is that my skepticism comes from climate being a classic complexity issue where trying to isolate a single factor (carbon) as being the main forcing for climate change requires a lot of real evidence. i'd turn the question back around on you by asking "why do you believe in CAGW?" when i asked myself that question (because i was like most peop…
Re: A troubling idea about climate change found new evidence in its favor
#69I have a question for the anthropogenic climate change doubters and deniers out there. You say either that it is certain that human activity is not having a significant influence on the climate, or it is not certain whether or not it is. My question is, it there any sort of scientific evidence that might be discovered in the future that would lead you to change your mind, and if so what would it be? Or is you view si…
First things first - I would not call me a denier, but I would call me understander.
An outcome from what I have read somewhere was that, if Sun increased its output by 1% (and kept it so for some years) it would cause equivalent warming to the one observed now. As far as I can say, Sun's activity was never constant. There may be other factors as well.
On few occassions I showed this page to believers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles - I do not remember getting any answer. The question was simple: what caused previous global warmings? What made the last glaciation melt down? I have searched for Milankovitch on HN and this was posted few times, but always zero comments from what I can see.
Re: A troubling idea about climate change found new evidence in its favor
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am not a "denier", but I do struggle with the evidence I have read as most of it has too much subjectivity or is based on meta studies where all underlying papers are highly subjective. What is missing from the debate is 2-3 papers that are agreed on to be the clearest evidence that temperatures are changing due to human inputs. Calling people 'deniers' is an ad hominen attack that doesn't prove anything, and most…
>I am not a "denier", but I do struggle with the evidence I have read as most of it has too much subjectivity or is based on meta studies where all underlying papers are highly subjective. So you would be persuaded if you thought the evidence was objective, not subjective. What are some criteria you use for determining if evidence is subjective or objective?