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Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#481

Post by Nadya »

Arizhel wrote: post #478
Nadya wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I become ill at the smell of alcohol. I sit out the usual Friday bar nights and have to turn down the occasional offers of alcohol from coworkers that don't interact with me frequently (and thus either don't know or have forgotten that I don't drink) They get to go get wasted at the local bar. I get to enjoy my Friday night playing video games alone. Win-win. If they do something like GoKarting I get dragged into som…

Right, and then you miss out on important work dealings and decision-making, you're seen as "not a team player", you're passed over for promotions, etc. Staying out of all work "team-building" events eventually looks really bad for you and will work against you.

Maybe I've been extremely fortunate - but that just hasn't the case at where I work. I'm very clear about why I don't attend these things and people are very understanding.

Perhaps it is because I have a very visible impact on my department or maybe because all decision making is done during office hours. The bar is for play and karaoke - not to talk about work. The company culture treats any work discussion during team outings as taboo. You won't be punished for it but you'll be told kindly to shut up and have fun - work will be back again next Monday. Talk about it then. :)

If I had to guess, that probably plays a huge part into why the company doesn't have those sort of problems.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#482

Post by Chris2048 »

Arizhel wrote: post #478
Nadya wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I become ill at the smell of alcohol. I sit out the usual Friday bar nights and have to turn down the occasional offers of alcohol from coworkers that don't interact with me frequently (and thus either don't know or have forgotten that I don't drink) They get to go get wasted at the local bar. I get to enjoy my Friday night playing video games alone. Win-win. If they do something like GoKarting I get dragged into som…

Right, and then you miss out on important work dealings and decision-making, you're seen as "not a team player", you're passed over for promotions, etc. Staying out of all work "team-building" events eventually looks really bad for you and will work against you.

How do you know? Is this fact, or fear?

If you deserve promotion for a non-social role, but aren't because you don't go out with the team, that is not good, but that's a tangent to banning work related drinking events.

Another question is, do you go to non-alcohol related work events?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#483

Post by Chris2048 »

emodendroket wrote: post #479
Chris2048 wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes it seem sexual in nature? Surely inviting a female employee, alone , is the unusual aspect that would make it appear suspect?

I'm not going to explain it any better than the other guy. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13970336

First things in that post:

> the individual nature of the invitation, the private nature of the venue

also:

> You don't need to see an agenda behind every invitation to recognize the agenda behind this one.

How does "that guy" know what agenda there is?

If you can't explain any better then I can't accept your argument.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#484

Post by cookiecaper »

pitaj wrote: post #343
andy_ppp wrote: post #3

The biggest factor for me has been when an employer promises changes to how the tech team is managed and then doesn’t deliver on them. To a certain extent all teams struggle with the trade-offs between spending time developing good specs versus staying agile, and between addressing technical debt and building new features. But I’ve left companies after years of chaotically fighting fires while simultaneously needing…

Please don't quote with code blocks. Use greater-than (>) symbols instead.

Why not? I've actually adopted this habit lately because I think it makes it easier to read, especially if the quote is lengthy.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#485

Post by greglindahl »

rejschaap wrote: post #452
peterwwillis wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For any given job where biology is not a factor (which is all of them except weight lifting and highly athletic sports), cultural norms are. Women take care of children, typically, and their shit does not smell like roses. So you need a new hypothesis.

I would say weight lifting is not an exception at all. The cultural norm is that women should not be too muscular.

Here's an article exploring body image opinions of female tennis players:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/11/sports/tennis/tenniss-top...

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#486

Post by Arizhel »

Nadya wrote: post #481
Arizhel wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and then you miss out on important work dealings and decision-making, you're seen as "not a team player", you're passed over for promotions, etc. Staying out of all work "team-building" events eventually looks really bad for you and will work against you.

Maybe I've been extremely fortunate - but that just hasn't the case at where I work. I'm very clear about why I don't attend these things and people are very understanding. Perhaps it is because I have a very visible impact on my department or maybe because all decision making is done during office hours. The bar is for play and karaoke - not to talk about work. The company culture treats any work discussion during t…

>The company culture treats any work discussion during team outings as taboo. You won't be punished for it but you'll be told kindly to shut up and have fun - work will be back again next Monday.

Many places are not like this.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#487

Post by sctb »

anothercomment wrote: post #322
shawn-furyan wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a 14 day old troll account. I would recommend against expending much effort to persuade a troll, or taking it seriously at all. That being said, you're correct, but the troll is offering ridiculous arguments because it is trying to spread FUD, not because it is genuinely trying to elucidate the issues.

You are the one throwing accusations and ad hominems against somebody you don't know, but I am the troll? Nice... https://i.imgur.com/SjQclIQ.jpg

Let's please not do this, either of you.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#488

Post by sudosteph »

aianus wrote: post #434
hocuspocus wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I've only worked at companies where the median age is well over 30, and when I read horror stories it often sounds like the problem mostly stems from overall immaturity, in both age and management experience. I'm sure age is no magic cure for all the assholery in this world, but the correlation between "family dad" and "decent, professional coworker" seems to fare nicely. Since this is the only advice to wome…

> "family dad" and "decent, professional coworker" seems to fare nicely I'm not a woman but I've had girlfriends who've complained about being sexually harassed at work and it's always been a "creepy, old married guy". Of course, maybe they personally didn't perceive similar attention from younger guys as harassment, I don't know.

My experience lines more up with the poster above. I've only been harassed by a creepy, young, single guy.

So I guess the pattern is really creepy guys?

That said, the "Dads" I've worked with (men with children, who I know have children because they talk about them or bring them in sometimes) have always been very easy to get along with. Also, I sometimes overhear them comparing notes on stuff they do with their daughters to teach them tech and science, which makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. Kudos to all you out there raising the next generation right.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#489

Post by sudosteph »

UK-AL wrote: post #92

Most of these issues are something that EVERY engineer has issues with. Male and female. I don't think a lot of these are female specific.

Absolutely! But I think that's actually a point worth making.

I hear all the time that higher-ups think that the key to retaining women is hosting diversity events, adding parental leave / mother's rooms, or other stuff specifically catered to women. Not saying those aren't good things to have, but for the most part, if you listen to your employees and treat all of your engineers well, you will see gains to retaining everyone, including women.

Women being so "in demand" for tech companies looking to improve diversity numbers also gives some of us the opportunity to be pickier with what kind of work environments we'll accept.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#490

Post by sudosteph »

ccc111 wrote: post #445
throwaway729 wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now women don't belong in tech not because they're under qualified, because you can't imagine not wanting to have sex with them? At least we are all clear on what the actual problem is.

You are ignoring the fact that i said males like to hang around other males, and it makes it exponentially hard for a woman to enter the "club". I assume you are a woman. Is your best friend a man or girl?

I'm a woman, and my best friend is a man. I have many more male friends than female ones in general, just due to my interests.

I've never once had the faintest idea of sex cross my mind when making relationships with co-workers or other male friends (I've been in a steady relationship for 7 years though, so it's not like I'm looking). Never once. And all my male friends I've made have never once conveyed anything sexual to me because they either don't feel that way, or if they ever did, they respect me enough to not make me feel uncomfortable (with the exception of one former coworker who I refer to as a harasser for his continual flirting + uncomfortable advances. I cut off all contact with him)

You're projecting tbh, many women are perfectly capable of creating strong platonic relationships with men. Usually it's the man who has an issue there, but that's not really my problem is it? If you think of sex any time a female befriends you and you let it get to you and damage your friendship, that's something you need to work on personally.

Also, do you think Gay dudes are unable to make friendships with straight guys for this reason too?

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