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Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#441

Post by vidarh »

misnome wrote: post #412
webkike wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be. There's no context here. In this constructed example sure, it's not a friendly gesture. But it is a poor example. Here's the one I'd use: "Hey employee #333 want to sex" See? No context necessary

I agree that there isn't enough context. The example doesn't even specify that it's being sent to a female employee (that's an assumption everyone is making) and I can imagine plenty of scenarios - with context - where it wouldn't necessarily be inappropriate.

The context here includes the parent comment to the one setting out the scenario, and the reaction of sending a message copied to the boss's boss complaining about it.

They make it clear that it was sent to a woman, and that the scenario at the very least was interpreted by the recipient as inappropriate.

Yes, there are scenarios where it could be acceptable, but consider that they are (much) narrower than you might think:

* Men can be sexually harassed too.

* Sexual harassment is not the only problem with an e-mail like that. It may also create drinking pressure, or a feeling that you are forced to socialise with your boss. Of course that is context-dependent too, but for my part, as a man who doesn't enjoy drinking and doesn't want to spend my Saturdays with the boss, I'd fell put under inappropriate pressure by an e-mail like that as well, because I'd be concerned that a rejection could impact work.

A lot of behaviour like that is fine when it is not between subordinates, and can be fine with subordinates too if it is someone you know very well.

But even then you need to consider that e.g. it may negatively affect team dynamics or may be unintentionally discriminatory or become seen as discriminatory purely by e.g. including only those the manager knows well too.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#442

Post by nradov »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #432
nradov wrote: post #318

Most of this is good input for managers but the first answer from Adele complaining about "getting disorganized braindumps or single line descriptions from stakeholders rather than the thoughtful, detailed specs they’ve promised" seems misguided and counterproductive. It's simply unrealistic to expect customers and customer proxies (product owners / business analysts) to supply detailed specs. Their minds don't work…

in my experience, the "disorganized brain dump" is all too often considered to be a valid spec by the people who delivered it. then you code it. and then they change their minds.

As a developer you have a professional obligation to engage with your colleagues and educate them about the process. Sometimes this means building a mock up or throw-away prototype just as a tool to facilitate further discussion. But complaining about it won't get you anywhere.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#443

Post by niuzeta »

mtreis86 wrote: post #390
shawn-furyan wrote: post #278

It is a continual frustration to me that the male-dominated tech community is so bad with these issues. Predictably, the top comment on this post that tries to move forward on a very real problem that has been empirically established is an appeal to stick with the status quo. I'm sorry, but companies have always focused on making money. Saying that the way to handle this very specific problem is to focus on making mo…

Which was the top comment when you wrote this? Your comment is now self-referencing.

I believe the GP was referring to this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13969465

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#444

Post by ec109685 »

warcher wrote: post #162
ck425 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm my takeaway from the familiarity was that it's harder for woman to manage up, which sucks. :(

I'm curious if you have a piece of the article that highlights that for you. I admit to skimming through it and thinking "Yeah, that's pretty much the gig." Engineering is a hard job, there's no two ways about it. Tech managers have a doubly hard job, having to navigate a tech stack well enough to lead their team and the people skills to manage all their special snowflake devs on one hand (nothing gender or age relat…

> If a company’s leadership feels too tightly knit – where all the managers and founders are friends that aren’t open to critical feedback from employees – I won’t even try to work out the issue before leaving

While not completely gender specific, I think that speaks to difficulty managing up.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#445

Post by ccc111 »

throwaway729 wrote: post #439
ccc111 wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello and thank you for your response :) Actually i am quite an average programmer at best but thanks for thinking highly of me for your response. To be quite frank, and ill add another point to this discussion, i got the job i currently have because i believe i just have more personality than most, me and my higher ups get along quite well. I find this friendship to be almost impossible from a woman's point of view.…

So now women don't belong in tech not because they're under qualified, because you can't imagine not wanting to have sex with them? At least we are all clear on what the actual problem is.

You are ignoring the fact that i said males like to hang around other males, and it makes it exponentially hard for a woman to enter the "club".

I assume you are a woman. Is your best friend a man or girl?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#446

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway729 wrote: post #438
micahbright wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your whole objection is to his statement, "you [women] shouldn't complain when it is difficult because you [they] are swimming upstream", but you misunderstood what he was saying. "When it is difficult because you are swimming upstream", he is talking about a case...in the case that it is difficult. It may not be difficult for all women. For a stubborn woman who doesn't have the skills, she shouldn't complain. So his…

Then his whole post is off topic nonsensical rambling...? Parent pretty much doubles down rather than correct me, so I don't think you're correct.

[deleted]

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#447

Post by ccc111 »

throwaway729 wrote: post #438
micahbright wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your whole objection is to his statement, "you [women] shouldn't complain when it is difficult because you [they] are swimming upstream", but you misunderstood what he was saying. "When it is difficult because you are swimming upstream", he is talking about a case...in the case that it is difficult. It may not be difficult for all women. For a stubborn woman who doesn't have the skills, she shouldn't complain. So his…

Then his whole post is off topic nonsensical rambling...? Parent pretty much doubles down rather than correct me, so I don't think you're correct.

Is it only because it doesnt fit with your opinions?

I am pretty broad with this.

Do you care to defend the military or football premise? - i will admit i am extrapolating a little

What is your current position/job if i may ask?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#448

Post by Arizhel »

Chris2048 wrote: post #426
Arizhel wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would a work group be going to a happy hour in the first place? That's bad because it assumes everyone is OK with drinking alcohol. Now you're alienating Mormons, ex-alcoholics, people who choose not to drink, and people who get physically ill from drinking alcohol. How about keeping workplace socialization at the workplace instead? Or perhaps at a decent sit-down restaurant where people can order food instead of…

> Or perhaps at a decent sit-down restaurant And what about people who choose not to go to restaurants? Seems like you have a chip on your shoulder about drinking.

A "chip"? So what's your answer to people who get physically ill when consuming alcohol? Don't get a job? Because in American drinking culture, they're going to look bad if they don't drink with everyone else at one of these stupid happy hours.

Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder about people who don't participate in American drinking culture and binge drinking.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#449

Post by mantas »

emodendroket wrote: post #350
mantas wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is neither gender, nor tech issue. IMO negotiating is part of relevant skillset. Especially for more senior (= better paid) positions. One has to know not only how to write code, but back up his decisions as well. Or prevent others from causing issues.

That skill has little to do with salary negotiation. And you keep on asserting that salary negotiation has nothing to do with gender, which seems to me to be skipping most of the work of refuting my arguments, based as they are on the premise that one's gender affects one's success in salary negotiation. Also, I think that these changes would likely benefit male workers too, but not to the same degree as women.

Yes, you're correct, I think we shouldn't discuss this as a gender issue.

IMO you're mistaking correlation for causation. As you say yourself, changing current salary setup would affect both women and men. This is not gender issue and this should be discussed on other points than gender. Making it about gender is counter productive.

Looking at this form economical perspective, as long as we don't have objective way to measure programmer's productivity, I don't think we can get away from salary negotiations.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#450

Post by watwut »

anothercomment wrote: post #376
watwut wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand, I dislike the openly "only for girls" activities. It is opposite of integration. On the other hand, programming and tech in general is already gendered in peoples minds. By people I here mean parents, children themselves, teachers and so on and so forth. Parents will refer to technical clubs as boy clubs (even if some girls participate) or mock boys doing dancing (that one surprised me), grandma will be…

My niece wanted a Lego Friends set from me for her birthday. It is not just misguided grannies... And dancing boys will probably care more about the reaction of girls their age than about ashamed grandmothers.

The boy in question was 5, at that age he don't care about girls yet. Girls his age don't care about his dancing.

Yes, girls want things that belong to girls. But grandma won't buy boy lego even of kid wants it and ask for it. And definitely not randomly for birthsday or something.

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