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Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

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Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#161

Post by flogic »

cperciva wrote: post #11
tbirrell wrote: post #9

tl;dr - It's like a crawler (mobile with a boom, street level crane) but you put it on top of something already there. Since its on top of something, it's not a "mobile" crane and couldn't get certified as one, however, it also didn't fit into the tower crane (tall, lifts things) certification. So it got stuck in between two classifications and as a result made it too hard for construction companies to bother includi…

It could, and did, get approved as a mobile crane. Then it was unapproved, thanks to political pressure.

Looking at the crane though. Approving it as a mobile crane seems a bit on the bonkers side. Mobile cranes are self contained units and provide their own stability through mass. This bolts to the building. Which, if memory serves, was where building cranes were failing a few years back.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#162

Post by bjourne »

ryandvm wrote: post #115
jakelarkin wrote: post #7

This is sort of like how when the waterless urinal was first commercialized, the plumbers union blocked it from getting approved in the general building code. Eventually a compromised was reached that involves requiring a plumber to draw an water line (unutilized) to every water-less install. Unions for skilled, high-pay jobs in highly regulated industries really extract a lot of questionable value from society.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me chuckle every time someone suggests a software developers union.

Because it would be completely horrible awful if programmers were making $500k/year (convert to your local currency as you see fit) like 'effing crane operators? :)

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#163

Post by brudgers »

djrogers wrote: post #80
VLM wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

waterless ones are patented and without a water line you'd be locked in to higher priced products and/or have to spend a lot of extra money to run a new water line after the walls go up. Generally the situation with waterless ones is people endlessly social signal their green superiority about them, then the incredible stench makes them install real urinals. Even if only 5% or so install real urinals the net cost is…

What about the flip side of it - someone wants to put in a few waterless urinals someplace where they can't run water line, and the alternative is no urinals at all? You've literally outlawed a portion of the utility of the invention.

Water supply lines are easy, sanitary waste lines are harder and messier. A location that will support a few 2" sanitary waste lines connecting to a 4" will support a 1" supply line.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#164

Post by hehheh »

kafkaesq wrote: post #42
jakelarkin wrote: post #7

This is sort of like how when the waterless urinal was first commercialized, the plumbers union blocked it from getting approved in the general building code. Eventually a compromised was reached that involves requiring a plumber to draw an water line (unutilized) to every water-less install. Unions for skilled, high-pay jobs in highly regulated industries really extract a lot of questionable value from society.

Except that there's no direct evidence of union shenanigans, in this case. Yes, conceivably the DOB could be in backroom cahoots with Local 14-14B, and nixing the crane on stated grounds of structural design concerns -- whilst in reality having other motives. And not only "conceivably"; stuff like this happens in NYC all the time. But we'd still need to see some actual evidence of such collusion, please; not just spe…

Ok. What laws do we need to pass and enforce to allow us to collect and share that evidence? Would any such legislation pass?

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#166

Post by wahern »

andrewflnr wrote: post #89
ahoy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Union acts in it's member's interests: "Terrible, we shouldn't allow this". Corporation acts in it's own interests: "Well you can't blame them for that".

The difference is when either the union or a corporation successfully hijacks law enforcement to promote its members' interests over those of the public.

When a corporation does it we blame the government.

When a union does it we blame the union.

It's a double standard. Worse, theoretically rent seeking by unions should be more tolerated than by corporations. We should minimize all forms of rent seeking, but some forms are worse than others. The rent seeking profits of unions are distributed to many more workers than of corporations, notwithstanding the fanciful image we have of the corrupt union boss.

Except for those on the far left, people generally perceive corporations as amoral. But almost all Americans, right and left, not only judge unions by a different standard, they're typically cynical about unions. Even well paid union members are cynical! It's... incredible.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#167

Post by notgood »

kafkaesq wrote: post #124
Dylan16807 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said anything about backroom cahoots? They're openly protesting.

They're openly protesting. City agencies don't just cave in to protests at the drop of the hat. Especially not NYC agencies. So again, what I request is simply: evidence , not speculation.

That's the thing about "motives", that you can't never prove or disprove one unless confessed by the "motivator" right?. So the only way to gather "evidence" would be to test the system and see if its actually dangerous or if its all bs.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#168

Post by tomcorrigan »

jaredhansen wrote: post #160
thekevan wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but remember this is New York City. In the original article, when the crane was first used on jobs and word got around about it being less expensive and required fewer operator man hours, his job sites were picketed by unions. There were anonymous calls to 311 reporting violations but when the inspectors got there, they didn't find anything wrong. In my mind, I'm skeptical and it could have been the cranes or i…

Here's a fun story about union influence in NYC (with a little twist I hope you'll indulge[1]): In 2005, I moved into a 19th-floor apartment in lower Manhattan. My girlfriend and I spent about 12 hours at IKEA getting everything needed to furnish the place. By the time we finished taking (2!) taxies back from Jersey with all my stuff, it was about midnight on a Friday night. It took another hour or so to schlep every…

Next time carry it up one flight of stairs and put it in the lift out of sight of the doorman.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#169

Post by ksherlock »

schoen wrote: post #4
GFischer wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that this might be a new push by their PR firm (which is very good I guess, the article is very flattering and small-guy vs union side and all the right buttons) http://gothamgr.com/media-coverage/

It looks like they subsequently received their certification: http://vertikalsolutions.net/products/ > NYC SKYPICKER CERTIFICATION > The SKYPICKER MDS is approved for use by the New York City Department of Buildings division of Cranes and Derricks This article might have been organized by a PR firm, but if so, I guess it's already been successful.

Per the payback machine, that text was added in late 2014 or early 2015, well before the article was written (It was approved in 2012 but then revoked in 2013 though).

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#170

Post by Retra »

viraptor wrote: post #113
Retra wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can outlaw bad decisions. That's the whole point of laws.

I thought law is about forbidding harmful decisions, not bad ones? (At least in theory) Most of the stupid things you do to yourself, without affecting others are not regulated.

Bad decisions are bad because they are harmful. And most stupid things you do to yourself do affect others, and they are regulated according to the significance of the damage, not merely predicated on its existence.
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