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Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#371
post #346

Please read all the way it does sound pretty blunt, kinda a rant. I'm a guy. Not a very liberal response. Men make money. Women look good. As terrible as that sounds. It is true. We are different species and have different advantages as the other. A pretty girl can literally take pics of themselves and marry in to wealth. We see this all the time. A actress is now dating Prince Harry, she is not a programmer or engin…

> Please read all the way it does sound pretty blunt, kinda a rant. I'm a guy. Not a very liberal response.

I approach this sort of writing with a stern charity.

Asking questions is never wrong. And I even entertain discriminatory assertions that have a compelling basis in reality. This is the charity.

But you damn well better be right, or at least not obviously wrong. If you have no compelling reason to believe what you preach -- if even the most cursory investigation would disposes you of a controversial and harmful if incorrect belief -- then you're just a bigot. This is the sternness.

So, let us evaluate your claims. Namely, that "you [women] shouldn't complain when it is difficult because you [they] are swimming upstream". I.e., that women are somehow naturally predisposed to poor software engineering.

Engineering requires a combination of technical aptitude and clear communication.

Let us first consider technical aptitude. It is instructive to consider other fields that over-lap with Computer Science and Software Engineering -- Mathematics (obviously important in CS and SE), medicine (requires systems-oriented thinking), and other sciences (requiring general technical skills).

Mathematics is more gender balanced than Computer Science. The most technically difficult aspects of Computer Science are basically applied mathematics. So technical competence cannot explain the CS gender disparity.

Medical Doctors are, on average, smarter, better credentialed, harder workers, and even better compensated than software engineers. And yet, the gender disparity among MD's is much lower than among software engineers.

Women outnumber men in several sciences, none of which you could reasonably call "pink-collar" fields without completely ignoring a good 20 years of history (let alone 100 years).

So, is it possible that women are somehow innately impoverished in the technical aptitude required in Software Engineering? I don't think so. But even if they are, this alone does not explain the gender gap in Computer Science.

Technical aptitude does not provide a compelling justification for your viewpoint.

That leaves us with communication. A technical genius who cannot communicate -- in code, in documentation, and in conversation -- makes for a dreadful engineer.

Perhaps innate communication ability explains the gap between men and women in software engineering? But all the women I know write much more clearly than you have in this post! And surely you are an excellent engineer.

So it seems I've run out of charity.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#373

Get everyone focused on thinking about the team's mission, role, and what it takes to get the job done. Drill that into everyone's head and stick to it. Let everything else go. A mentor once told me that business fundamentally revolves around making money, saving money, saving time, and making customers happier. I like thinking about work that way, as it has nothing to do with religion, sex, gender, age, height, phas…

I mean these Silicon Valley firms keep getting caught in blatant sexual harassment cases. I think a lot of them need, like, basic remedial education.

I am positive that many (But not all) of these firms put their managers through sexual harassment training. I went through it before I received reports.

The problem is that it only takes one idiot to cause a problem... And the odds of at least one manager being an idiot approach 100%, as your company grows.

(In a place like Uber, though, the problem seems systemic.)

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I share your frustration, but I've found the landscape to be more complex than most people are willing to give it credit for. For example, my partner and I disagree on the value of things like "Girls who Code" or "Women in Computer Science" groups. I (male) tend to think "can't hurt seems like a decent idea, I'm sure there are unique challenges faced by people with two X-chromosomes in computer science that I'm not a…

I don't want to speak for my wife, but she has been actively involved in Girls Who Code, and seems to have thought that it was worthwhile. As I understand it, it's more about letting girls know that programming is an option, rather than being about segregating female engineers. I think this is necessary because I have personally seen the assumption that men are engineers and women are support people limit the careers…

Response to your response to GP's edit. Pretty sure GP was talking about him and his spouse not him and you.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#375

>Female leaders: Founders, CEOs, CTOs receive far more public criticism AND HOSTILITY than male CEOs and CTOs ie.e Ellen Pao as leader of reddit, Marissa Meyer, Sheryl Sandberg * The things that have been said about these women and their bodies and how evil they are I have never ever heard with male CEOs no matter how evil, nor have I seen criticism as harsh, unrelated to the business issue, cruel and emotionally pun…

Wow...I mean 1. I never claimed Marissa Meyer ran yahoo into the ground. It was a mess when she started, and from what I know of her shes no a sociopath, a computer scientist from Stanford who was one of the originals at google so...I don't know even know how to respond to that, except that I would ask you calibrate the cost of her so called lavish parties to that of any other multi billion dollar or hell, a first ro…

I never said Meyer ran Yahoo into the ground; I pointed out Yahoo was already on a downward trajectory, and I said she didn't do anything to help that.

I said Carly Fiorina ran HP into the ground. And she did. No, HP was not "falling apart* before she got there. She's the one who had the dumb idea of merging with Compaq, a huge and costly merger that didn't benefit HP at all, and turned it from a company making extremely high-value equipment (medical and test equipment) into a company making crappy commodity PC hardware. She also helped run Lucent into the ground before she went to HP.

>For you to not acknowledge that is just bigotry.

I never said anything about it either way. To call me a "bigot" because I don't address something to your satisfaction speaks volumes about your agenda. I only pointed out that there's plenty of horrible male CEOs, meaning that CEOs of both sexes are frequently bad. I never addressed random anonymous internet posters, nor do I care to. The internet is full of horrible, vitriolic people as we see right here from time to time, and I see little point in even paying attention to them.

>soooo I really find your comment assuming anyone who is a CEO a sociopath offensive.

I find your defense of CEOs to be highly offensive. In my observation, most CEOs clearly are sociopaths, and the profession as a whole has deservedly earned that reputation. And anyone who's an apologist for the profession is likely a sociopath themselves, or maybe a useful sycophant. Whoopee, you found one that you think might not be a sociopath. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

>I just don't even know what else to say about your presumptuous attitude about all CEOs being sociopaths. I can imagine they must become disenchanted with people like you who never turn down an opportunity to judge them as a person despite not knowing them as a person at all but farther than yet, you are making absolutely baseless claims in that regard.

Oh gee, those poor, poor, multi-millionaire/billionaire CEOs!! Won't someone think of the billionaires!

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#376
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I share your frustration, but I've found the landscape to be more complex than most people are willing to give it credit for. For example, my partner and I disagree on the value of things like "Girls who Code" or "Women in Computer Science" groups. I (male) tend to think "can't hurt seems like a decent idea, I'm sure there are unique challenges faced by people with two X-chromosomes in computer science that I'm not a…

On one hand, I dislike the openly "only for girls" activities. It is opposite of integration. On the other hand, programming and tech in general is already gendered in peoples minds. By people I here mean parents, children themselves, teachers and so on and so forth. Parents will refer to technical clubs as boy clubs (even if some girls participate) or mock boys doing dancing (that one surprised me), grandma will be…

My niece wanted a Lego Friends set from me for her birthday. It is not just misguided grannies...

And dancing boys will probably care more about the reaction of girls their age than about ashamed grandmothers.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially as a woman, I worry about being labeled hyper-sensitive, or that my gender will influence a person’s reaction to my feedback (e.g. the perception that women are hysterical). [...] > The final straw has typically been something like my manager making an off-hand remark that is thoughtless and rude, or perhaps a project I care about deeply is axed, or I’m denied a raise, or someone I care about at work is…

"perhaps a project I care about deeply is axed, or I’m denied a raise... or gets fired" Women more likely to encounter this? This stuff happens all the time to everyone. I'm not sure how this is something a woman is more likely to encounter.

They probably aren't, but if they express displeasure about it, the same way that their male colleagues do, some people would interpret that as them being overly emotional.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#378
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a continual frustration to me that the male-dominated tech community is so bad with these issues Is it? The implication is that tech is worse than other professions in this regard. But it has never been compared to other industries full of young people. Color me skeptical but I don't believe that a field full of introverted immigrants with language barriers would have a bigger harassment issue than the busine…

Yes, it is. The tech industry is bad at it, period. Other industries being better or worse doesn't change that fact.

I don't know. My wife is a dentist and we go to a lot of dental conferences together. Vendors ALWAYS think I'm the doctor and she's my assistant when we first walk up. Even women.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#379
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that there is something obvious wrong that is causing society to have 87.5% (Swedish statistics) of citizens, equal amount women and men, working in professions that has serious gender segregation in favor of their own gender. The trend is that the remaining 12.5% men and women that actually work in a gender equal environment (minimum 40% of each gender) is continuing shrinking and we have yet to see how…

There are some jobs that require physical strength, and I think it is undisputed that men are stronger than women on average. Garbage men are an example for that (I think it is very strenuous work). I've read that while the military in many countries strives to allow more women, this has resulted in many injuries to women because they are more prone to injuries under physical strain. There are some jobs that can not…

I spent several months at home with my People's mileage may vary, but I would be very reluctant to paint "spending time with one's children" as some kind of easy option. I returned to full-time work at the earliest opportunity and with a sigh of relief. Many other child carers (of both genders) would love to do the same.

Not quite sure why the difficulty of scheduling brain surgery or truck driving around children is apposite either. No particular reason (beyond ingrained expectations) why a woman can't do the surgery and her partner keep predictable hours and handle the children.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#380
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a continual frustration to me that the male-dominated tech community is so bad with these issues Is it? The implication is that tech is worse than other professions in this regard. But it has never been compared to other industries full of young people. Color me skeptical but I don't believe that a field full of introverted immigrants with language barriers would have a bigger harassment issue than the busine…

Yes, it is. The tech industry is bad at it, period. Other industries being better or worse doesn't change that fact.

What it changes is the discussion of solutions. Is this a societal problem, or a problem just for the computer technology industry? Where do we attempt to apply fixes? Are we adding a bunch of strange work-arounds far from the root of the problem? Does it make sense if they are not actually working?
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