It's striking how many women in this article mention bad relationship with bosses as the main reason to leave. No question, this is a very legitimate reason. I'm just surprised that it looks like it happened quite often through their careers. I did have terrible bosses maybe couple times through my almost 20-year work experience, but it never was so much a problem -- low pay, or boring job were the main reasons I swi…
Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?
261–270 of 510 posts
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?
#262Get everyone focused on thinking about the team's mission, role, and what it takes to get the job done. Drill that into everyone's head and stick to it. Let everything else go. A mentor once told me that business fundamentally revolves around making money, saving money, saving time, and making customers happier. I like thinking about work that way, as it has nothing to do with religion, sex, gender, age, height, phas…
Ethics do not logically fall into place magically because the ultimate goal is making money. It's easy to say "ignore those factors in favor of making money" but the reality of the world isn't that simple. Uber didn't tolerate a culture that got in the way of making money, and now they're here.
"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think this thinking is discouraging. Bot to men but even more to women and it might be the reason why there are so few women in STEM fields. I think generally work places should be much more well rounded. We spend a considerable amount of time there, so why not allow it to be a place where we expand our lives instead of a place where we only "make money, save money, save time, and make customers happier"?
Careful. Plenty of STEM fields have much better gender parity than tech. Tech is singularly bad among the STEM fields; only physics is competitively bad. Mathematics, molecular biology, stat --- all have strong female participation. Worth noting: all these other STEM fields are also heavily dependent on software and computer technology, and women do fine in them.
Generic "Engineering" is just as bad as CS. In fact, CS is slowly approaching the Engineering level (from the top).
What's interesting is that the graph that's often bandied about left off engineering, to show CS as the sole outlier.
Things that make you go "hmmm...."
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?
#264Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Women leave tech at a rate much higher than they leave other industries. The only conclusion is that tech is a hostile environment for women, or that women are intrinsically unable to perform in tech. "Men fail to enter [teaching|nursing|child care] at a rate much higher than other industries. The only conclusion is that [teaching|nursing|child care] is a hostile environment for men, or that men are intrinsically u…
You're changing the argument. The OP said that women leave tech at a much higher rate than other industries. You claim that men enter certain professions at a much lower rate. This is apples and oranges.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?
#265How can Hospitals help retain Male Nurses? (male nurses: ~8%) How can Schools help retain Male Teachers? (male teachers: ~20%) How can we help Males dying on the job? (male on the job deaths: ~90%+)
Naturally, these questions do get asked in each industry. Nursing [1-3]; K-5 teaching [4-6]. There are entire federal and state agencies with copious regulation dedicated to workplace safety. As a society, we spend millions upon millions each year making inherently dangerous workplaces (mostly occupied by men, as you note) a bit less dangerous. And I don't even know anything about those cultures; I'm literally "just…
Lip service doesn't matter; change matters.
If you look at nursing stats, men leave at a much higher rate than women. Sexual harassment, liability when caring for women and children, getting saddled with the harder jobs (because he's a man), pay sucks, and a general every day attitude from everyone about being a male nurse (with the added bonus that generally speaking, old nurses really hate new nurses and the more different you are, the worse it is). Generally speaking, you'll tend to see male nurses gravitate toward specialties or travel nursing where most of these issues are less prevalent.
What about teachers? The split used to slightly favor men over women once upon a time. If there were ever a profession where male/female diversity were important, it would be in the education system. Instead, we see the huge male pedophile scare of the 70-80s followed by a large drop in the number of male teachers in general and in younger grades in particular. Most male elementary school teachers are there for PE. Factor that out and it's extremely easy for your child to go through almost a decade of schooling without meeting a male teacher.
To tie that particular idea back to software engineering, are the majority of female elementary teachers self-loathing, backward individuals who believe in the inherent inferiority of women? If not, then why do they work so hard to keep their female students out of certain parts of STEM?
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Women leave tech at a rate much higher than they leave other industries. The only conclusion is that tech is a hostile environment for women, or that women are intrinsically unable to perform in tech. "Men fail to enter [teaching|nursing|child care] at a rate much higher than other industries. The only conclusion is that [teaching|nursing|child care] is a hostile environment for men, or that men are intrinsically u…
Each of those professions have considerable effort to increase the numbers of men working in them. This is a tedious point, and it gets made every single fucking time there's a thread like this. Use a search engine. You'd find, within a few moments, programmes across all of these industries to correct the gender imbalance.
And yet the number never budges, and we don't hear the president and the media blasting said industries over their shameful employment ratios day after day.
Instead it's just "hmm yes, that's curious. Well we're working on the problem. Carry on..."
Whereas in tech if the ratio isn't 50/50 there's hell to pay. In comparison there isn't a damn thing being done to address the imbalance in the industries I've listed. Yet women in tech, that's a national crisis.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think there's a case to be made that, in general, women may be more sensitive to some universal tech industry issues which men tend to shrug off or otherwise deal with differently.
Your being down voted because no one wants to hear it, but there is some truth to it. It isn't so much a biological difference (there may be some of that) but one that is likely a byproduct of how we socialize children [1]. Fixing this issue in adults is a hell of a lot harder to fix than it is in kids. It doesn't help that software engineering as a whole, is to varying degrees, broken. From how we interview to how w…
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?
#268My dev organization had, at one point, a fairly respectable gender ratio (relative to other orgs, which isn't saying much). Over time, the women in our dev org have had a much higher attrition rate, because they've moved on to other opportunities. I've never heard a complaint from any of them that women were treated differently here. I have a suspicion that women who get into tech tend to be more self-assured than th…
If your org has a higher female % than the population it sources its applicants from, would that not raise more suspicions of sexism?
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?
#269Get everyone focused on thinking about the team's mission, role, and what it takes to get the job done. Drill that into everyone's head and stick to it. Let everything else go. A mentor once told me that business fundamentally revolves around making money, saving money, saving time, and making customers happier. I like thinking about work that way, as it has nothing to do with religion, sex, gender, age, height, phas…
This is the mentality that leads to drama explosions like at Uber. They were all focused on making money and building a big company. Because of this, they ignored the "little things" like building a HR department that could support women when they were put in bad situations.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?
#270Earlier quoted context omitted.
> payment inequality Perceived or real? I'm yet to hear about a company that has policy to pay women less. Most have personally-discussed salaries though. If some ladies are paid less, they probably don't haggle as well. What should we do? Deny custom salaries and personal raises?
Yeah, no kidding, nobody has a policy to do that. But there are several factors, including: 1. Women tend to negotiate less aggressively 2. Women who negotiate aggressively tend to be perceived worse than men doing the exact same thing 3. Implicit bias affects the amount of money an employer sees fit to offer in the first place As to what to do, here some ideas: * Massachusetts' law barring employers from asking abou…
This is jumping ahead of ourselves.
The first step is problem formulation. Is this a problem in the first place? Why? How do we quantify the problem? How do we quantify a resolution?