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Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

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141–150 of 510 posts

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#141
The common thread running through all of this was that what seemed to drive these women from their own roles in tech were the incompetence or inexperience of management.

I'm young enough (born in the late 1980's) that during my entire time in the work force, I feel like I've only ever met ONE "real" manager. I've known many people in management roles, but I think we've definitely lost sight of what good management even looks like. If you're under a certain age, I wonder if you've even met a real manager before. From today forward, many of the people in management roles may never have met a real manager before too - how are they supposed to fill a role they've never seen before.

I think we need some good management role models, and we need to find a way to encourage people in management roles to grow to fill this.

I don't have any studies or hard facts to cite, but consider this - I feel like part of the role of a manager is to bear responsibility and deadlines, manage the workers and give them the access and tools they need to succeed. But what I see most often is managers (not doing the work) acting like slave drivers, pushing all of the responsibility and pressure of meeting the deadlines on the workers to stress about. I see lower level workers staying late after work, taking 'ownership' of their manager's responsibilities out of fear they will get fired. That's not what it's supposed to look like but unfortunately for most millennials it seems to be the common experience.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole position is summed up as "Be a corporate drone." I think a lot of us would disagree with it.

Many of us don't care.

If you don't care then it seems like allowing people who do care to hold their women in technology groups or whatever would be fine.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#143
post #67
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2) Some flexibility on hours/location when children come. Women have a harder 'stop' than men do on their child bearing age, which frequently coincides with moving into senior development roles. Also paid maternity leave, funded by taxes.

Include paternity leave while you're at it.

If the question is "How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?" - how is paternity leave relevant (unless the father in the relationship works for the same company, I guess)?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#144
Why do we need to try to attract women to technical role?There are plenty of other people to fill the role. This is America they are free to go to another job if they want. I think discrimination should be harshly punished, but trying to get a certain person (color, ethnicity) into a certain role just seems anti SV.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#145

Am I wrong or all the issues seem to be not gender related but about management and they apply to both sexes?

Well, due to the outrageous skew in gender, I think you have to read these things more deeply. There are offices with 18 or 20 men and 0 women or 1 woman. That doesn't happen statistically - certainly not with the incentives of exceedingly high salaries and a field that is open to all (by means of a computer science undergraduate program.) Look at something that is much harder than becoming a software engineer: becom…

Does software engineering have a gender problem, or a social validation problem?

It is no secret that women in nations where software engineering is likely to be a significant source of employment are far more socially attuned than men are; whether this is by nurture or nature is grist for another mill at another time. It is also no secret that software engineers rank lower on social validation than doctors. Empirically, look at a sampling of org charts, and statistically, pure software engineers (not counting Fellow-type positions, for example) rarely call the shots. Not that they should as a rule: I'm pointing out the reality.

Regardless of the US reality for doctors, with the constraints imposed upon them by the dysfunctionally-broken US healthcare policies, the social perception of doctors is "doctors call the shots". The phrase "doctor's orders" carries enormous cultural weight behind it.

To empirically test a weak form of this hypothesis, compare the number of women managers who were originally trained as programmers to women software engineers. If there is a statistically significant deviation, then some Maxwell's Demon-like mechanism at work performs a sorting function that emerges this deviation, gradually exerting an inexorable pull upon women programmers into management. A stronger experimental confirmation of this hypothesis would require someone with far more training in such psycho-social factors discrimination to devise an experiment to empirically test.

I'm not discounting the very real challenges women software engineers face. Personally, I have not witnessed first-hand any of the workplace vibe-killers described, and I've been in a lot of different workplaces by dint of my wandering consulting career, but I can believe it happens because I've also seen some really bad behavior in the species, and generally I tend to attract clients with pretty solid corporate cultures. But women tend as a statistical aggregate to pay attention to the nuances of social rankings far more than most men realize, and especially men in software engineering realize.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#146

Wow. So in the name of getting women women into tech, we need to abandon * Code reviews, design documents, and anything else that might provide a forum for "chest thumping" * Opportunities to express one's love of traditionally geeky things * Organic conversation during happy hour * Meritocracy (since diversity pushes end up being affirmative action in practice) Maybe women in tech are less common than men in tech no…

Maybe women in tech are less common than men in tech not because of some fundamental unfairness, but because fewer women want to be in tech.

Regardless of the parent poster, if it's a natural tendency of women to not want to be in tech, why did the percentage graduating CS drop from 37% in 1985 to 18%? I don't think women's intrinsic nature changed in the last 30 years, do you?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#147
post #127

Wow. So in the name of getting women women into tech, we need to abandon * Code reviews, design documents, and anything else that might provide a forum for "chest thumping" * Opportunities to express one's love of traditionally geeky things * Organic conversation during happy hour * Meritocracy (since diversity pushes end up being affirmative action in practice) Maybe women in tech are less common than men in tech no…

No. Your post is completely off base. No one said anything about removing code reviews. They said remove the culture of aggressive and mean code reviews. No one said to remove the opportunity to express one's love of geeky things or organic conversation during happy hour. They said to tone that down, and be more inclusive, so other members of the team can express their love of things they like. Meritocracy is a red h…

> No one said anything about removing code reviews. They said remove the culture of aggressive and mean code reviews.

In practice, that means making code review comments unclear and extremely passive aggressive. I'd rather have plain, clear statements than statements that on the surface are pleasant and helpful but that are actually meant to be emotional and professional shivs. I've been both.

> No one said to remove the opportunity to express one's love of geeky things or organic conversation during happy hour. They said to tone that down, and be more inclusive, so other members of the team can express their love of things they like.

The proposal is to prevent conversations flowing naturally according to the normal implicit rules of conversation and instead steer the conversation to "inclusive" topics. You know what I'd do in that situation? Grab a bunch of my coworkers and head off to the nearest pub to have the conversation we want to have. Congratulations, you've tried to help and made things worse.

> Meritocracy is a red herring.

This idea is both trendy and dangerous. Some ideas are better than others. I don't want to be around people who think that asbestos and plastic are both perfectly good materials for medical devices and that we should reach a compromise position to ensure that everyone is heard. If person A consistently proposes ideas that work and person B is genial, but constantly proposes ideas that don't work, A has more merit.

> And likely, fewer women want to be in tech because of the sexist attitudes

This argument is circular. You're defining literally anything that might make women choose to not come to "tech" as being sexist. Never mind that women get all sorts of preferences; never mind that women are paid more these days. It's all about how there are more men than women, therefore we have a "problem" that we need to "fix".

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the mentality that leads to drama explosions like at Uber. They were all focused on making money and building a big company. Because of this, they ignored the "little things" like building a HR department that could support women when they were put in bad situations.

I think a part of "don't tolerate a culture that gets in the way of making that [making money] happen" is not tolerating sexism, juvenile behaviour, harassment, or bullying in the workplace. All of those factors make some of your employees less productive.

Totally agree. The distinction I'm trying to make is that it's easy to let these things happen when you're focused on building and selling a product. I'm positive that no CEO wants their business to be a place where women are harassed or personnel problems slow down progress. However these things can and do happen without a lot of careful effort spent early on, focused on preventing them. By the time the problems become visible (e.g. through a shocking public blog post), it will be significantly harder to fix the underlying causes, which is very costly to the company in terms of attracting and keeping talent and maintaining focus on objectives.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're wrong. Every industry has management problems. Women leave tech at a rate much higher than they leave other industries. The only conclusion is that tech is a hostile environment for women, or that women are intrinsically unable to perform in tech.

>or that women are intrinsically unable to perform in tech. The more accurate version of this is "women find less value in tech." It deserves more consideration than it gets. There are differences that aren't just cultural between genders, and its something that should be taken into account when forming a judgement on these issues.

Or it could be that "tech finds less value in women".

Historically, your argument has been used to suppress women and minorities. It's weird that every time a group doesn't fit into an industry or a culture, that group is not white men.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#150
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like women are aliens with concerns that are completely divorced from male employees. They just have a superset of concerns that also includes the potential for gender discrimination from coworkers and managers.

There are likely a similar set of male specific issues as well, so it seems presumptuous to call it a superset.

This is important. There's a fine line between calling women's needs "special needs" and implying the primacy of maleness.

Indeed, both men and women have a superset of human concerns.

The union is never instantiated.

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