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Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

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Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really fair? That rich people benefit from the laws and protections of the U.S., without having to deal with the corruption and laws of India. But they can then import cheap workers to displace the very people who paid for those protections to even exist in the first place? It seems a breakdown of the social contract to me. I think there's definitely two ways to look at this one.

> That rich people benefit from the laws and protections of the U.S., without having to deal with the corruption and laws of India. But they can then import cheap workers to displace the very people who paid for those protections to even exist in the first place? If the tax system is so broken that the poorer are paying for the richer's protection, then fix the tax system so that the rich person pays the "correct/fai…

You entirely missed my point and reduced it down to simple, naive, economics again. How depressing.

This isn't about tax rates, it's about a social contract, a small few are allowed to capture a significant % of the economic output of a country, to reap the benefits of the legal and military power of that country. As part of that, they need to share, and they're sharing increasingly less. They think it their "skill" rather than their lucky upbringing, their fortunate birthplace.

There's far more to life, and to a country, than GDP.

As for ordinary people "owning" companies, that's either a naive or disingenuous argument. They're a tiny percentage. It is widely acknowledged the benefits of economic recovery has almost entirely been captured by rich people and ordinary people haven't seen an effective wage increase in a decade.

The stats don't back your stance.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That rich people benefit from the laws and protections of the U.S., without having to deal with the corruption and laws of India. But they can then import cheap workers to displace the very people who paid for those protections to even exist in the first place? If the tax system is so broken that the poorer are paying for the richer's protection, then fix the tax system so that the rich person pays the "correct/fai…

You entirely missed my point and reduced it down to simple, naive, economics again. How depressing. This isn't about tax rates, it's about a social contract, a small few are allowed to capture a significant % of the economic output of a country, to reap the benefits of the legal and military power of that country. As part of that, they need to share, and they're sharing increasingly less. They think it their "skill"…

> You entirely missed my point and reduced it down to simple, naive, economics again. How depressing.

Of course it's about economics as it deals with policy and impacts on people. Simple arguments are better.

Not using economics is a cop-out from using rigorous quantitative analysis. It's interesting that on say climate change HN will be all like we should follow the science, yet economics is the science relevant to our discussion.

> There's far more to life, and to a country, than GDP.

True, so what? More money is still better. GDP per capita is a good measure of peoples' living standards.

An interesting read about "The Economics of Happiness" is https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/bernanke201... by Ben S. Bernanke, former chair of the Federal Reserve (the part starting from "As you might guess, when thinking about the sources of psychological well-being" is most relevant).

https://www.gapminder.org/news/hdi-surprisingly-similar-to-g...

> As for ordinary people "owning" companies, that's either a naive or disingenuous argument.

The stats don't back your stance. "Compare that to the middle class, which has a median value of a mere $14,000 a household."

Also, bond yields (and bank interest) go up when stock yields go up and (I don't know if CNN counted this or not) people invest in retirement funds which invest in stock. And insurance companies also invest their customers' money.

(http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/18/investing/stock-market-inves... )

http://www.valuewalk.com/2013/03/retail-investors-hold-38-of...

"A surprising fact revealed in the report is that retail investors have invested $9.8 trillion in the U.S. equities, or 38 percent of the total $25.8 trillion corporate equity holdings. Additionally, $812 billion hedge fund assets belong to US retail investors. To put in context hedge funds have total assets under management of approximately $2 trillion. This would mean that approximately 40% of hedge fund assets come from retail investors in the US, the remainder comes from foreign investors and institutions."

> They're a tiny percentage. It is widely acknowledged the benefits of economic recovery has almost entirely been captured by rich people and ordinary people haven't seen an effective wage increase in a decade.

The stats don't back your stance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Income_Share_of_Top_... here, rejoice that the top 1%'s share is mostly static

Meanwhile,

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N it's increased by 7.3% from 2012-2015

Interestingly, you said "The stats don't back your stance." while not using any stats yourself and only using weasel words like "It is widely acknowledged the benefits of economic recovery".

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#213
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American companies are not a welfare state. A corporation can only expend so much time and money in the search for good workers. So you can't expect the companies to actively go out to every little town in Iowa and see if there are workers willing to relocate at a reasonable pay (more on the reasonableness of pay later). I agree. That's why I support the abolition of the H1-B visa program, at least in the form it c…

> If you can't afford the labor costs, then your business doesn't get to exist. That's the way the market works. If I could hire people for ten cents an hour, I could start a great software business. I can't. Too bad for me. Its rather ironic that you advocate for free markets when it suits you but later in your same post you want protectionism. You can't have it both ways, no matter how much you want it. > Your stat…

Smart protectionism does help. It's how Japan, South Korea, and now China have developed advanced manufacturing industries where free traders would have told them to specialize in what they did best at the time like grow rice. We need to look more holistically at free trade.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#215
Now if we could get companies on intern fraud that would be great. Interns are not legally supposed to take jobs from real workers, be unpaid (unless you are a non-profit), or be used for real work right away (like things that might be used 9 months from now possibly). But their main purpose is to teach them, not to be used for cheap/free labor.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You entirely missed my point and reduced it down to simple, naive, economics again. How depressing. This isn't about tax rates, it's about a social contract, a small few are allowed to capture a significant % of the economic output of a country, to reap the benefits of the legal and military power of that country. As part of that, they need to share, and they're sharing increasingly less. They think it their "skill"…

> You entirely missed my point and reduced it down to simple, naive, economics again. How depressing. Of course it's about economics as it deals with policy and impacts on people. Simple arguments are better. Not using economics is a cop-out from using rigorous quantitative analysis. It's interesting that on say climate change HN will be all like we should follow the science, yet economics is the science relevant to…

Oh, stop. It's widely reported in the news, you can't have missed it, e.g:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/nov/13/us-wealth-i...

Graph looks severely different to the one you just posted.

I'm not going to try and debate anything with someone who thinks economics is the only measure of life, you're too narrow minded.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You entirely missed my point and reduced it down to simple, naive, economics again. How depressing. Of course it's about economics as it deals with policy and impacts on people. Simple arguments are better. Not using economics is a cop-out from using rigorous quantitative analysis. It's interesting that on say climate change HN will be all like we should follow the science, yet economics is the science relevant to…

Oh, stop. It's widely reported in the news, you can't have missed it, e.g: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/nov/13/us-wealth-i... Graph looks severely different to the one you just posted. I'm not going to try and debate anything with someone who thinks economics is the only measure of life, you're too narrow minded.

The graph is different as it shows the wealth share, not the income share.

> I'm not going to try and debate anything with someone who thinks economics is the only measure of life, you're too narrow minded.

I don't think money is the only measure of life. Then what do you want to use to measure it?

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#218
post #91

This thread is great. Whenever H-1B threads come up on HN, I prepare for the onslaught of what can only be described as hatred. It's the view of many people on this site that all H-1B holders are "cheaters" of the system, and they don't deserve to get a job in the US. As a former H-1B holder, the threads always made me feel guilty, and feel bad about wanting to work for a well regarded, successful company. It's nice,…

My hatred was earned. I worked in 3 offices with Indians (likely H-1B). Most were not that good, just willing to take anything from the employer.

Most of the overseas ones were incompetent and unable to learn or use logic. Many of them honestly couldn't compete with an average American 5th grader. Yes I'm serious.

Also some weren't potty trained. Seriously. I still have an email containing directions about how to use the bathroom.

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