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The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

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Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#61

Post by Shivetya »

sandworm101 wrote: post #35
tehlike wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who flies through istanbul once a year, i was always surprised by the fact that there is very little security at us airports. :) I think it is more about penetration possibility more so than airport sevurity itself.

Security at US airports is hit-and-miss. Sometimes they check something and sometimes they dont. Rules appear to change daily and every checkpoint seems to interpret them slightly differently.

carry a little dog in a crate or weer your insulin pump, well you are getting an extra look. security is one thing but the level of ignorance at times is astounding.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#62

Post by dhimes »

StavrosK wrote: post #55
junto wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently he had absolutely no idea, but it completely freaked him out.

With good reason, I can imagine how paranoid that would make me. I'd definitely try to find how they found this out, starting with checking whether I posted it somewhere public. That would be the least worrisome scenario.

Fuck, that freaks me out and I'm not gay nor traveling to the Mid East. Shit.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#63

Post by yebyen »

sn41 wrote: post #48
golemotron wrote: post #38

In the news recently we've seen that illegal border crossings from Mexico have gone down substantially just because the administration has signaled that there will be more deportations. This laptop ban could have the same effect. Increase the barriers for visitation from some countries and people think twice. If this is what the administration is doing, it's very Machiavellian.

I don't get the comparison. One is about clearly illegal crossings going down. The other is about legal, ordinary passengers. Moreover, these countries are important for global business, and are used as hubs by travellers of many countries. I don't get what's there to "think twice" about it?

Well, you do have people like Bannon in powerful positions who have openly stated their belief that legal immigration is a "real problem." [1]

It's not that far-fetched, then, that GP is describing a real strategy with the goal of making them "think twice." It's not something that you or I want as an end, but it is an end.

[1]: https://mcfeely.areavoices.com/2017/02/01/bannon-legal-immig...

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#64

Post by dane-pgp »

stable-point wrote: post #47
sandworm101 wrote: post #5

Unlike all the other restrictions on material allowed in-flight recently, this ban only applies to specific airports/countries. One must ask why shoebomber or liquid explosive plots resulted in universal bans while this one is country-specific. Imho this is business and politics. This everyday safety mesure is being applied selectively in order to disadvantage some and advantage others. If ipads are a threat, ban the…

The article asks an interesting question which casts doubt on this theory: why does the UK ban affect UK airlines too?

I suspect this is because Theresa May didn't want the UK policy to be so blatantly discriminatory, but still wanted to obsequiously support Donald Trump in the hopes of receiving preferential treatment from America as the UK severs its ties with other EU member states.

Whatever the intelligence says about the risk of certain devices, I can't see how that threat doesn't apply equally to passengers travelling from any country (although plausibly there could be significantly increased risks relating to passengers of certain nationalities).

This policy feels like an obvious target for someone to crowd-fund a judicial review into.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#65

Post by aorth »

pieter1976 wrote: post #12

At some point we are going to have to realise that terrorists are always going to want to target aircraft and just live with it. This ban makes no sense because $BAD_GUY can just via some intermediate airport with their iPad Bomb. It's interesting that El Al has not decided to ban laptops (despite undoubtedly being a target) and, in fact, advises people not to put valuables in the hold: https://www.elal.com/en/Passen…

I've heard El Al is especially paranoid, but I had a pretty horrible experience flying out of Tel Aviv with Wizz Air in 2017-02 where Israeli security asked me tens of questions on several different points during my navigation through the airport, and then finally my MacBook Pro failed the security check and was confiscated—I was told "you are not allowed to fly with this laptop." They sent it 48 hours later on the next Wizz Air flight. Huge pain in the ass. sigh

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#66

Post by pavel_lishin »

StavrosK wrote: post #20
junto wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But El Al is also profiling passengers before they even reach the airport. They stop people on route and question them to gain any subtle clues as to whether people might be nervous or acting strangely. They know weird shit like who you've met after being in Israel. A gay friend of a friend went to Tel Aviv Pride, and was taken aside and asked why he'd chosen to sleep with an Arab as he was leaving the country.

The hell? How did they know that?

Maybe they were much more interested in the man he slept with than him.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#67

Post by pavel_lishin »

logicallee wrote: post #37
pieter1976 wrote: post #12

At some point we are going to have to realise that terrorists are always going to want to target aircraft and just live with it. This ban makes no sense because $BAD_GUY can just via some intermediate airport with their iPad Bomb. It's interesting that El Al has not decided to ban laptops (despite undoubtedly being a target) and, in fact, advises people not to put valuables in the hold: https://www.elal.com/en/Passen…

EDIT: I am not defending the policy. I would like to address the specific argument you've used to attack it. (I don't agree with the laptop ban, and I want strong arguments being made against it, not weak arguments.) --- >At some point we are going to have to realise that terrorists are always going to want to target aircraft and just live with it. I would like you to please pay attention for a moment (try to follow…

> I will give your argument a name: "argument from helplessness." We can't solve it, so we should just accept that it will open happen.

He didn't say that. He said that dirty feet are always a problem, and people will always track dirt into the house, and the solution to that is not to selectively ban muslims from wearing their shoes into your house, or banning Nike sneakers, or people who have recently walked through a particular part of town.

The kidnapping analogy is also faulty; we _have_ learned to deal with it, because for the majority of people it is simply not a concern, and banning arbitrary things doesn't prevent kidnapping any case. (What would we ban? Windowless vans? Rope?)

Also, unrelated to the strength of the various arguments, you come off as incredibly condescending:

> I would like you to please pay attention for a moment (try to follow my train of thought), maybe I can convince you of something.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#68

Post by moftz »

dhimes wrote: post #62
StavrosK wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With good reason, I can imagine how paranoid that would make me. I'd definitely try to find how they found this out, starting with checking whether I posted it somewhere public. That would be the least worrisome scenario.

Fuck, that freaks me out and I'm not gay nor traveling to the Mid East. Shit.

Most likely they were watching the Arab guy and were able to determine the name and travel plans of the person that was hanging out with the Arab.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#69

Post by _ea1k »

camillomiller wrote: post #4
CoolGuySteve wrote: post #2

According to this Guardian article, the ban was caused by a plan to hide a bomb in an iPad: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/26/plot-explosive... I always thought it was weird that you could keep an iPad packed in your carry on but a laptop had to be scanned separately even if it was a similar size to an iPad.

Every security check in Europe and SE Asia I passed in the last few years (~60 flights) mandated to take every device out of the bag, iPads and smartphones included

I have been through a security gate in Amsterdam that required taking out all wires as well (microusb cables, earbuds, etc).

It was just really bizarre to me.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#70

Post by phicoh »

alistairSH wrote: post #52
phicoh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to bring an insane amount of electronics in my hand luggage. The reason that need big objects like laptops separately is that they block too much when they are scanning the rest of your luggage. So if on average the scanner can see through an ipad then there is no need to take it out. I my case, all they see is a huge collection of wires and small devices, so all of that needs to be put on separate shelves and…

Still weird. My carry-on for all of trips I listed above was MacBook Air, iPad, iPhone, Olympus mirrorless camera, 2-3 lenses, Canon P&S camera, 2 USB charging bricks, chargers for the camera batteries, charger for the MBA, a bunch of USB cables. Some snack food, a light jacket, and toiletries. Of course, the really maddening part is the inconsistency. I use TSA Pre-check when possible, so I'm accustomed to not takin…

The ultimate reference point is whether the person watching the screen at the scanner can see everything or not. If most of the time laptops are transparent enough then why bother asking people to remove them.

On the other hand, if routinely they can't properly scan it and have to deal with delay, they will instruct people to take it out of the bag.

In the end it still is security theatre so it doesn't have to make sense as long as it looks convincing enough.

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