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Muslim Women in India Ask Top Court to Ban Instant Divorce

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Re: Muslim Women in India Ask Top Court to Ban Instant Divorce

#11
post #6
post #3

That's incredibly unfortunate... in areas like that, people hardly know a thing about Islam but can label themselves Muslims and then pretend they're practicing it. Preference of boys over girls as children in Islam is a huge sin -- written so explicitly in the Qur'an. But the families and people described in the story clearly don't care and thus are hardly Muslims. I hope she finds a safer setting soon. With that sa…

>Preference of boys over girls as children in Islam is a huge sin -- written so explicitly in the Qur'an. anyone who doesn't follow the book to the tee is not a muslim ? What about Muslims who don't 'kill the infidels' , they aren't Muslims either? Is anyone a muslim at all then?

One of the theological cornerstones of Islam, is that the Quran is the perfect, direct and unalterable word of Allah.

If you have faith in Allah, if you truly believe that he is the author of this world, and if you accept Muhammad as its prophet. Then, I genuinely wonder what room is left for compromises. How do you interpret "Kill the apostates"? How can you, in good faith, pretend it is an allegory?

This is what Islam requires from its followers: blind and complete trust. It is not only a sacred book. The Quran is a civil code that aims to regulate every minute of the lives of its adherents. And let's stop kidding ourselves. It is not a peaceful religion either. Islam has conquest and expansion ingrained in its DNA. The Muslim world is extremely orthodoxical. There are peaceful Muslims living in the West. They are peaceful in spite of their holy book, not because of it. Those individuals should be celebrated.

We're asking a violent bedouin who lived in a pre-medieval era to share our hierarchy of values and ethical system. This is anachronistic and cannot end well. Muhammad was not a hippie. He was a warlord.

Re: Muslim Women in India Ask Top Court to Ban Instant Divorce

#12

A marriage should end when either of the parties want it to end, or else it's no longer consensual. I don't believe in forcing people to stay married. But divorce still needs to mean splitting the finances so nobody is left destitute and without skills for employment. Alimony was invented for a reason. Before it existed, divorce was immensely cruel. (Contrast: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/mar/24/tini…

Doesn't the US has something like a 51% divorce rate? if you accept the premise that the nuclear family is a cornerstone of western civilization I can see why you would not be ecstatic at the idea of making marriage a trivial thing. Should we allow the individual to have every one of its desires in reach of fulfillment? Though I concede that there is a point in allowing unhappy marriages to part away, after all, why…

Should we allow the individual to have every one of its desires in reach of fulfillment?

Our modern society is founded on the supreme principle of individual rights. If you want to live in a collectivist society with arranged marriages and a general distrust for individual freedoms, you can choose to do so. There are several available to choose from.

Otherwise you're going to have a hard time making the argument here. Too many people enjoy individual rights so much they are willing to leave their lives and livelihoods behind in order to come here. At the very minimum it's encumbant upon us to continue to preserve these rights for everyone.

Re: Muslim Women in India Ask Top Court to Ban Instant Divorce

#13
post #6
post #3

That's incredibly unfortunate... in areas like that, people hardly know a thing about Islam but can label themselves Muslims and then pretend they're practicing it. Preference of boys over girls as children in Islam is a huge sin -- written so explicitly in the Qur'an. But the families and people described in the story clearly don't care and thus are hardly Muslims. I hope she finds a safer setting soon. With that sa…

>Preference of boys over girls as children in Islam is a huge sin -- written so explicitly in the Qur'an. anyone who doesn't follow the book to the tee is not a muslim ? What about Muslims who don't 'kill the infidels' , they aren't Muslims either? Is anyone a muslim at all then?

I'm assuming OP was addressing the difference between religious rules and purely cultural traditions.

Many muslim-majority countries suffer from traditions that have been mixed up with religion (things like female circumcision in Mauritania or Egypt, preferring male children to females in some muslim Asian countries, all type of pagan rituals/"sorcery" in Morocco, etc.). Those things are in direct contradiction with the most common/popular interpretations, and yet people will present them as being linked to Islam (quite hard to find a commonly accepted interpretation of the Quran asking women to be circumsised, or allowing people to adore saints and "cast spells")

Re: Muslim Women in India Ask Top Court to Ban Instant Divorce

#14
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Preference of boys over girls as children in Islam is a huge sin -- written so explicitly in the Qur'an. anyone who doesn't follow the book to the tee is not a muslim ? What about Muslims who don't 'kill the infidels' , they aren't Muslims either? Is anyone a muslim at all then?

One of the theological cornerstones of Islam, is that the Quran is the perfect, direct and unalterable word of Allah. If you have faith in Allah, if you truly believe that he is the author of this world, and if you accept Muhammad as its prophet. Then, I genuinely wonder what room is left for compromises. How do you interpret "Kill the apostates"? How can you, in good faith, pretend it is an allegory? This is what Is…

Thanks for your opinion. Quite a few intelligent people disagree with you. Please see below.

http://oxfordstudent.com/2013/05/30/debate-this-house-believ...

Re: Muslim Women in India Ask Top Court to Ban Instant Divorce

#15

A marriage should end when either of the parties want it to end, or else it's no longer consensual. I don't believe in forcing people to stay married. But divorce still needs to mean splitting the finances so nobody is left destitute and without skills for employment. Alimony was invented for a reason. Before it existed, divorce was immensely cruel. (Contrast: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/mar/24/tini…

Doesn't the US has something like a 51% divorce rate? if you accept the premise that the nuclear family is a cornerstone of western civilization I can see why you would not be ecstatic at the idea of making marriage a trivial thing. Should we allow the individual to have every one of its desires in reach of fulfillment? Though I concede that there is a point in allowing unhappy marriages to part away, after all, why…

"if you accept the premise that the nuclear family is a cornerstone of western civilization"

Individual rights are the cornerstone of modern western civilization, not the nuclear family.

Re: Muslim Women in India Ask Top Court to Ban Instant Divorce

#16
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the US has something like a 51% divorce rate? if you accept the premise that the nuclear family is a cornerstone of western civilization I can see why you would not be ecstatic at the idea of making marriage a trivial thing. Should we allow the individual to have every one of its desires in reach of fulfillment? Though I concede that there is a point in allowing unhappy marriages to part away, after all, why…

Should we allow the individual to have every one of its desires in reach of fulfillment? Our modern society is founded on the supreme principle of individual rights. If you want to live in a collectivist society with arranged marriages and a general distrust for individual freedoms, you can choose to do so. There are several available to choose from. Otherwise you're going to have a hard time making the argument here…

I was not trying to argue whether that's the case or not. As you said so well, it is clearly the case. Rather, I am trying to wage whether that's a good thing or not. Is there a balance to strike?

>If you want to live in a collectivist society with arranged marriages and a general distrust for individual freedoms, you can choose to do so. There are several available to choose from.

I think you're putting words in my mouth. Words that you would like me to say perhaps.

Re: Muslim Women in India Ask Top Court to Ban Instant Divorce

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the US has something like a 51% divorce rate? if you accept the premise that the nuclear family is a cornerstone of western civilization I can see why you would not be ecstatic at the idea of making marriage a trivial thing. Should we allow the individual to have every one of its desires in reach of fulfillment? Though I concede that there is a point in allowing unhappy marriages to part away, after all, why…

"if you accept the premise that the nuclear family is a cornerstone of western civilization" Individual rights are the cornerstone of modern western civilization, not the nuclear family.

>Individual rights are the cornerstone of modern western civilization, not the nuclear family.

Sure. Individual rights are the cornerstone of modernism. Western civilization predates the French Revolution.

Re: Muslim Women in India Ask Top Court to Ban Instant Divorce

#18

A marriage should end when either of the parties want it to end, or else it's no longer consensual. I don't believe in forcing people to stay married. But divorce still needs to mean splitting the finances so nobody is left destitute and without skills for employment. Alimony was invented for a reason. Before it existed, divorce was immensely cruel. (Contrast: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/mar/24/tini…

Doesn't the US has something like a 51% divorce rate? if you accept the premise that the nuclear family is a cornerstone of western civilization I can see why you would not be ecstatic at the idea of making marriage a trivial thing. Should we allow the individual to have every one of its desires in reach of fulfillment? Though I concede that there is a point in allowing unhappy marriages to part away, after all, why…

The nuclear family is a myth born in the mid-20th century and spread by television, so I can't accept that premise, although the attempt and failure of most families to emulate Leave it to Beaver and Donna Reed might be a source of some of the psychological problems plaguing modern western civilization.

Re: Muslim Women in India Ask Top Court to Ban Instant Divorce

#19
post #6
post #3

That's incredibly unfortunate... in areas like that, people hardly know a thing about Islam but can label themselves Muslims and then pretend they're practicing it. Preference of boys over girls as children in Islam is a huge sin -- written so explicitly in the Qur'an. But the families and people described in the story clearly don't care and thus are hardly Muslims. I hope she finds a safer setting soon. With that sa…

>Preference of boys over girls as children in Islam is a huge sin -- written so explicitly in the Qur'an. anyone who doesn't follow the book to the tee is not a muslim ? What about Muslims who don't 'kill the infidels' , they aren't Muslims either? Is anyone a muslim at all then?

Religious interpretation or exegesis in Islam dates back to the dawn of the religion. It is complex and relies on carefully reasoned precedent.

It's interesting that casual critics of Islam and Muslim extremists (mostly influenced by Wahhabist Saudi thought) take the same amateurish approach to interpreting scripture, by de-contextualising random passages, throwing away exegesis and going for "aha!" moments to justify their positions.

Re: Muslim Women in India Ask Top Court to Ban Instant Divorce

#20
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the theological cornerstones of Islam, is that the Quran is the perfect, direct and unalterable word of Allah. If you have faith in Allah, if you truly believe that he is the author of this world, and if you accept Muhammad as its prophet. Then, I genuinely wonder what room is left for compromises. How do you interpret "Kill the apostates"? How can you, in good faith, pretend it is an allegory? This is what Is…

Thanks for your opinion. Quite a few intelligent people disagree with you. Please see below. http://oxfordstudent.com/2013/05/30/debate-this-house-believ...

You linked to an article where half the "arguments" made are either valid but are disjoint with the mainstream schools of Islam (in face, that they all live in the West is a good hint that they would probably be considered apostates elsewhere - I counted one Ahmadi). Anecdotally, none of them either published or studied at Al-Azhar.

The other half are just threats.

So, really, I'm quite disappointed because I am looking for someone to contradict me.

>Quite a few intelligent people disagree with you.

Okay

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