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Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

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Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#131

Post by AtheistOfFail »

izacus wrote: post #49
FesterCluck wrote: post #7

I've personally witnessed the hiring of a contractor from India at a small development company simply to save on funds. There were plenty of skilled workers in our pool to fill the position, the owner simply didn't want to pay the price. Weeks into his employment the developer came to me and asked if there was anyone he could report work complaints to. I gave him contact information for the state's employment agency.…

That sounds like free market though doesn't it? Hire the cheapest workforce that can do what you want?

Actually, a free market would be making them residents the moment they begin their new job and allowing the H1B visa to be transferable for free to any company the moment they enter the US.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#132

Post by ghaff »

humanrebar wrote: post #130
Amezarak wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I, or most other people who are against the H1B visa system, have anything against H-1B holders themselves. They're obviously everyday people who are doing what's right for themselves and taking a big risk that generally pays off pretty well for them. If I was in their place, I hope I would have the cojones to do the same thing. Picking up and moving to another country is a big deal. What I have a probl…

> I'll grant there could be in Silicon Valley or California I'd be willing to relocate there if it made economic sense. If H1B were not available and bay area salaries higher, it would be more in the realm of personality. I know a lot of great engineers in "flyover states" that more than understand that they'd have to take a decrease in standard of living to move to the Bay Area so don't even consider it.

The Bay Area situation is complicated. Relocating to the Bay Area from a not-low-cost East Coast area looked like a decrease in standard of living to me 25 years ago. (Admittedly other positions might have been different. But Bay Area CoL has been high for a long time.)

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#133

Post by toast0 »

anjc wrote: post #127
keerthiko wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a perverse question. The word "fairness" implies to all parties involved, typically by uplifting whoever would be disadvantaged in the system pre-fairness-implementation. You probably meant "advantageous to who?" and the answer to that is obviously the employer, and to a lesser extent the migrant worker. Capitalism is about favoring businesses (employers) in general, hoping for trickle-down benefits to individ…

Ok so then you feel that it's possible that it may increase net-fairness, but that it could be be unfair to some parties? So with regards to the indictment described in the OP, it would be very clearly unfair if indigenous workers were displaced due to the illegal availability of cheaper non-national workers, right? I don't see how it's a perverse question.

> Ok so then you feel that it's possible that it may increase net-fairness, but that it could be be unfair to some parties?

It's more fair to all parties, if fairness means equal pay for equal work. It was never fair for the US worker that got paid 3x the salary for doing the job in the US instead of overseas. Being paid a more fair wage doesn't mean the US worker will be happier (in fact, the opposite is likely).

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#134

Post by anjc »

aianus wrote: post #128
anjc wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok so then you feel that it's possible that it may increase net-fairness, but that it could be be unfair to some parties? So with regards to the indictment described in the OP, it would be very clearly unfair if indigenous workers were displaced due to the illegal availability of cheaper non-national workers, right? I don't see how it's a perverse question.

Imagine some guy was hired at $50/h to flip burgers and a few years down the line he gets fired in favor of a cheaper worker. Which part was unfair? The part where he was making $50/h flipping burgers or the termination? Edit: what if the reason he was making $50/h was because he lobbied his government to restrict burger flipping work authorization to people born within 2km of his home and he was the only one qualifi…

The analogous part that's unfair would be the illegal importation of cheaper labour from emerging economies who will flip burgers for a wage that doesn't allow for an acceptable standard of living (meaning that they can only afford rent if they share bedrooms with strangers and so on).

The reason for increased issuances of visas is corporate lobbying too, and most American workers have very little protection in terms of rights and lobbying, so your comparison is flipped around to describe the opposite of reality.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#135

Post by anjc »

toast0 wrote: post #133
anjc wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok so then you feel that it's possible that it may increase net-fairness, but that it could be be unfair to some parties? So with regards to the indictment described in the OP, it would be very clearly unfair if indigenous workers were displaced due to the illegal availability of cheaper non-national workers, right? I don't see how it's a perverse question.

> Ok so then you feel that it's possible that it may increase net-fairness, but that it could be be unfair to some parties? It's more fair to all parties, if fairness means equal pay for equal work. It was never fair for the US worker that got paid 3x the salary for doing the job in the US instead of overseas. Being paid a more fair wage doesn't mean the US worker will be happier (in fact, the opposite is likely).

> It was never fair for the US worker that got paid 3x the salary for doing the job in the US instead of overseas

?! By this argument it's unfair that Indian workers get paid more in the US than they do in India, as this is unfair to people who do the job in India for less?

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#136

Post by Merad »

humanrebar wrote: post #130
Amezarak wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I, or most other people who are against the H1B visa system, have anything against H-1B holders themselves. They're obviously everyday people who are doing what's right for themselves and taking a big risk that generally pays off pretty well for them. If I was in their place, I hope I would have the cojones to do the same thing. Picking up and moving to another country is a big deal. What I have a probl…

> I'll grant there could be in Silicon Valley or California I'd be willing to relocate there if it made economic sense. If H1B were not available and bay area salaries higher, it would be more in the realm of personality. I know a lot of great engineers in "flyover states" that more than understand that they'd have to take a decrease in standard of living to move to the Bay Area so don't even consider it.

> I know a lot of great engineers in "flyover states" that more than understand that they'd have to take a decrease in standard of living to move to the Bay Area so don't even consider it.

Yup. According to all the cost of living calculators I'd need upwards of $175k in SF to match what I'm getting at the moment in boring old Tennessee. There's no way it's worth it for me.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#137

Post by toast0 »

anjc wrote: post #135
toast0 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ok so then you feel that it's possible that it may increase net-fairness, but that it could be be unfair to some parties? It's more fair to all parties, if fairness means equal pay for equal work. It was never fair for the US worker that got paid 3x the salary for doing the job in the US instead of overseas. Being paid a more fair wage doesn't mean the US worker will be happier (in fact, the opposite is likely).

> It was never fair for the US worker that got paid 3x the salary for doing the job in the US instead of overseas ?! By this argument it's unfair that Indian workers get paid more in the US than they do in India, as this is unfair to people who do the job in India for less?

Isn't the basic tenet of fair wages equal pay for equal work?

If the work is essentially the same in all locations, it's unfair that the wages aren't the same everywhere. Certainly, the work may not be the same everywhere, and not all workers are providing the same level of work etc. If the worker in India provides the same value to the company as the worker in the US, how is it fair that they are paid differently?

There's also a massive difference in cost of living, and maybe it's fair to pay someone more because the business chooses to hold offices in an expensive place; OTOH, maybe it's more fair to pay everyone the same, and close offices in HCOL areas because you can't attract employees at a fair wage.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#138

Post by ue_ »

izacus wrote: post #63
klodolph wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's the "selectively free market". Free when it makes things convenient for me (I can hire cheap labor), not free when it makes things inconvenient (I don't compete against cheap labor or other business which might be more competitive here if they could hire the same cheap labor).

Or maybe "we want fully free market for whatever we produce but not for when someone competes for my job"? :) HN comments usually skew hugely against any kind of regulation and towards "free market will take care of it", except when it comes to jobs and pay it seems.

If the comments skew against regulation, I wonder how they skew toward a Communist like me. I don't usually get more than 2 or 3 downvotes, though maybe that's because I don't comment in threads that are very populous.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#139

Post by autokad »

toyg wrote: post #43
iliketosleep wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So long as a loophole exists that satisfy the conditions of being relatively easy to exploit, weakly enforcement, and offer significant competitive advantage (i.e. savings on salaries), companies will exploit it. Finding loopholes in the system to enhance profits and be more competitive is part of a game. So I find it difficult to blame employers. The problem lies in policy and enforcement; something is very wrong if…

Whenever people moan about enforcement of white-collar-crime laws, I can't help but think about the last scene in The Wolf of Wall Street: after a short stint in prison, DiCaprio's scummy businessman is still rich and admired, while the FBI guy who took him down shares a cheap subway ride with other poor, tired and depressed workers. Incentives are wrong all over the place, Reaganism made authorities fundamentally po…

"Reaganism made authorities fundamentally powerless"

This topic is being abused by the most liberal companies in the most liberal cities. i get the feeling its mostly ignored and not prosecuted (like illegal immigration) is because they feel its better for everyone. I am not taking a stance on whether that is correct, but don't for one second blame that on Reaganism.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#140

Post by hocuspocus »

writer77 wrote: post #36

Beyond this, there's an entire system that has undermined American software engineers. Schools are incentivized by the ridiculous out of state/country fees they get when they accept international students for their Masters programs, regardless of a students actual abilities or whether the three year Indian/China/U.K. Bachelors sufficiently prepares them. These people always graduate, because money. Corporations, who…

Chinese and Indian Bachelors are 4-year programs and I doubt many American students would manage to graduate even from an average engineering school over there.

UK and European 3-year Bachelors are merely a means to an end, i.e. a 5-year university education that is comparable to doing a 4+1 year BS+MS, which is an option offered by many American universities. Very few European students apply straight to a Masters program in the US after completing their 3-year BS.

You can blame second zone universities that have become a visa mill for students ready to pay an expensive ticket to the US job market. And there are definitely issues with underprepared international students, especially regarding languages skills and the very different expectations compared to their home country. But there's no need to be demeaning.

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