Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

mercurynews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 218 posts

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#121

Post by keerthiko »

anjc wrote: post #85
Klockan wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not fair to replace a local worker with a foreign worker because they're cheaper. Why not? I'd argue that it is more unfair that an American worker gets paid many times more than an Indian worker even when they do exactly the same job. Letting those Indian workers come to America and compete on more equal terms is among the fairest things you can do.

Fair to who?

That's a perverse question. The word "fairness" implies to all parties involved, typically by uplifting whoever would be disadvantaged in the system pre-fairness-implementation. You probably meant "advantageous to who?" and the answer to that is obviously the employer, and to a lesser extent the migrant worker. Capitalism is about favoring businesses (employers) in general, hoping for trickle-down benefits to individual consumers, so allowing hiring immigrant workers for lower wage seems consistent with capitalist principles.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#122

Post by keerthiko »

School-Cotton wrote: post #45
patio11 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you believe that I took a $30k a year programming job as a legal immigrant in the knowledge that it would require 60+ hour weeks because it was my impression that it was the best option available to me? "I'm clearly not Google material; I can barely get this J2EE app working", "I perceive that I am working uphill against racism in hiring managers", "I owe my sponsor for this job because they treated me fairly",…

Was this in Japan? (I just read the first few sentences of the bio on your blog). If so, how different is 30k USD there from market rates? And what country are you from originally? I wonder if anything is at all different because of differences between Japanese and US culture with respect to discussing compensation, what is typically expected of workers, and so on. (Not trying to poke holes in your story -- just genu…

patio11's comments rang perfectly true of the average Indian software engineer's line of thinking and contextual awareness as well. I didn't grow up or work in India, but I have a lot of friends who do/did and can see them constrained by this thinking.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#123

Post by cronjobber »

Velox wrote: post #91

This thread is great. Whenever H-1B threads come up on HN, I prepare for the onslaught of what can only be described as hatred. It's the view of many people on this site that all H-1B holders are "cheaters" of the system, and they don't deserve to get a job in the US. As a former H-1B holder, the threads always made me feel guilty, and feel bad about wanting to work for a well regarded, successful company. It's nice,…

I don't think most are as confused as you'd like them to be over whether H-1B workers are cheaters or willing pawns of cheaters.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#124

Post by Chathamization »

ComodoHacker wrote: post #41

I wonder why people here praise free competition on a global market as a primary value when they talk about their products and services, but support competition limiting when it comes to the labor market in their own country.

Economist Dean Baker has been making this point, and its an important one. While most in the upper class seem to be adamant that people in, say, manufacturing must compete with low cost foreign workers (free trade is good, protectionism is bad), they are more than happy to continue the protectionism that more educated workers (people like them) enjoy.

There are a lot of people that are fine with protectionism, but think it should only apply to the people like them. They think that those lower down on the ladder need to find new professions, even if they're in their 50's.

Dean Baker:

> Unfortunately, almost none of the people who pronounce themselves devotees of free trade actually do consistently advocate free trade policies. Rather they push selective protectionist policies, that have the effect of redistributing income to people like them, and call them "free trade."

...

> In the United States, the "free traders" in most cases also support the protectionist restrictions which severely limit the ability of foreign trained doctors and dentists and other high-end professionals from working in the United States. As a result of these protectionist measures doctors in the United States earn twice as much as their counterparts in other wealthy countries, costing us around $100 billion a year in higher health care costs.

http://cepr.net/blogs/beat-the-press/the-free-traders-do-not...

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#125

Post by Retric »

Zelmor wrote: post #71
ComodoHacker wrote: post #41

I wonder why people here praise free competition on a global market as a primary value when they talk about their products and services, but support competition limiting when it comes to the labor market in their own country.

Because they are acting in their own best interest and rationalize away the cognitive dissonance.

Not really, land and culture is not fungible. Having say a minimally corrupt judicial system is the kind of thing you risk with unlimited migration.

I also don't believe in totally free markets. A flat 10% import terrif on ALL goods and services promotes home grown capital intensive industry where appropriate. Sparking long term growth, while allowing counties to import and export goods where appropriate.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#126

Post by silentguy »

writer77 wrote: post #36

Beyond this, there's an entire system that has undermined American software engineers. Schools are incentivized by the ridiculous out of state/country fees they get when they accept international students for their Masters programs, regardless of a students actual abilities or whether the three year Indian/China/U.K. Bachelors sufficiently prepares them. These people always graduate, because money. Corporations, who…

In a way overseas students subsidize the education of local american students in exchange of access of job market. It seems like a fair deal to me.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#127

Post by anjc »

keerthiko wrote: post #121
anjc wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair to who?

That's a perverse question. The word "fairness" implies to all parties involved, typically by uplifting whoever would be disadvantaged in the system pre-fairness-implementation. You probably meant "advantageous to who?" and the answer to that is obviously the employer, and to a lesser extent the migrant worker. Capitalism is about favoring businesses (employers) in general, hoping for trickle-down benefits to individ…

Ok so then you feel that it's possible that it may increase net-fairness, but that it could be be unfair to some parties?

So with regards to the indictment described in the OP, it would be very clearly unfair if indigenous workers were displaced due to the illegal availability of cheaper non-national workers, right? I don't see how it's a perverse question.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#128

Post by aianus »

anjc wrote: post #127
keerthiko wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a perverse question. The word "fairness" implies to all parties involved, typically by uplifting whoever would be disadvantaged in the system pre-fairness-implementation. You probably meant "advantageous to who?" and the answer to that is obviously the employer, and to a lesser extent the migrant worker. Capitalism is about favoring businesses (employers) in general, hoping for trickle-down benefits to individ…

Ok so then you feel that it's possible that it may increase net-fairness, but that it could be be unfair to some parties? So with regards to the indictment described in the OP, it would be very clearly unfair if indigenous workers were displaced due to the illegal availability of cheaper non-national workers, right? I don't see how it's a perverse question.

Imagine some guy was hired at $50/h to flip burgers and a few years down the line he gets fired in favor of a cheaper worker.

Which part was unfair? The part where he was making $50/h flipping burgers or the termination?

Edit: what if the reason he was making $50/h was because he lobbied his government to restrict burger flipping work authorization to people born within 2km of his home and he was the only one qualified?

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#129

Post by humanrebar »

toyg wrote: post #43
iliketosleep wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So long as a loophole exists that satisfy the conditions of being relatively easy to exploit, weakly enforcement, and offer significant competitive advantage (i.e. savings on salaries), companies will exploit it. Finding loopholes in the system to enhance profits and be more competitive is part of a game. So I find it difficult to blame employers. The problem lies in policy and enforcement; something is very wrong if…

Whenever people moan about enforcement of white-collar-crime laws, I can't help but think about the last scene in The Wolf of Wall Street: after a short stint in prison, DiCaprio's scummy businessman is still rich and admired, while the FBI guy who took him down shares a cheap subway ride with other poor, tired and depressed workers. Incentives are wrong all over the place, Reaganism made authorities fundamentally po…

> Reaganism made authorities fundamentally powerless

Corruption between regulators and the regulated predates Reaganism by quite a lot. The problem here isn't a lack of authority on the part of the government. It's misaligned incentives and poor policy-making.

Re: Bay Area professionals indicted for H-1B visa fraud

#130

Post by humanrebar »

Amezarak wrote: post #120
Velox wrote: post #91

This thread is great. Whenever H-1B threads come up on HN, I prepare for the onslaught of what can only be described as hatred. It's the view of many people on this site that all H-1B holders are "cheaters" of the system, and they don't deserve to get a job in the US. As a former H-1B holder, the threads always made me feel guilty, and feel bad about wanting to work for a well regarded, successful company. It's nice,…

I don't think I, or most other people who are against the H1B visa system, have anything against H-1B holders themselves. They're obviously everyday people who are doing what's right for themselves and taking a big risk that generally pays off pretty well for them. If I was in their place, I hope I would have the cojones to do the same thing. Picking up and moving to another country is a big deal. What I have a probl…

> I'll grant there could be in Silicon Valley or California

I'd be willing to relocate there if it made economic sense. If H1B were not available and bay area salaries higher, it would be more in the realm of personality.

I know a lot of great engineers in "flyover states" that more than understand that they'd have to take a decrease in standard of living to move to the Bay Area so don't even consider it.

Post reply on HN