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Ask HN: Do other fields of engineering have an equivalent to whiteboarding?

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Re: Ask HN: Do other fields of engineering have an equivalent to whiteboarding?

#31

Post by crdb »

BigCatStuff wrote: post #28
crdb wrote: post #25

Not quite engineering, but related: Professional orchestras have auditions, where you will perform a piece from the solo repertoire in front of the head of the section you are auditioning for, and a few other key staff (e.g. [1]). Some auditions will include orchestral parts, and you can buy books of famous solos for most instruments. This repertoire has little in common with the kind of playing you will be paid for,…

When auditioning, would the applicant know which pieces of music they will be required to perform beforehand? I am assuming that they do, which would make it very different from 'whiteboarding' from a software engineering interview. In software engineering interviews, most of the time the interviewer will try to have prepared questions that the interviewee has NOT seen before. To make it more like an audition, the qu…

Yes and no. Usually you can play what you like and project a certain impression (e.g. last movement of Sea Eagle [1] if wanting to show brilliance, a Mozart concerto [2] if wanting to play it safe). This is similar to showing your open source work or the solution of a take home assignment.

They will then ask you to sight read or play through famous repertoire (e.g. Tchaikovsky 5th Symphony 2nd movement horn solo [3]).

This is true whiteboarding in the sense that in theory, you might not have seen it before, but a professional (or a well prepared student) will know most of the things that can be asked, just as inverting a binary tree is one of many probable whiteboard problems an engineer who knows the game will pick up in Gayle McDowell's book or whatever.

And that's part of the game, one that older engineers don't need to play anymore, which is why they have problems at the US border, whereas older musicians must continue proving themselves as their work has a physical component that unfortunately must be demonstrated throughout their professional life.

Edit: this captures the spirit of the thing quite well, spot the parallels with an engineering interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdAnogOKR0I

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu2kIVSP5yw&t=8m

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XELNRsN3Jx8

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEbO80q66ak&t=1m12s

Re: Ask HN: Do other fields of engineering have an equivalent to whiteboarding?

#32

Post by openfuture »

yessql wrote: post #8

I haven't experienced it, but I've only had a couple interviews/jobs as an electrical engineer before switching to software, where they happen almost every time. I think it's a sign that universities are failing to be trusted as credentialing institutions. You should be able to verify a degree and conclude from that the person learned the material. I guess this is why the professional engineering exams exist.

The whole idea of having education coupled with evaluation is misguided to begin with. All it causes is anxiety and loss of internal motivation.

Re: Ask HN: Do other fields of engineering have an equivalent to whiteboarding?

#33

Post by [deleted] »

gnud wrote: post #30
BigCatStuff wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When auditioning, would the applicant know which pieces of music they will be required to perform beforehand? I am assuming that they do, which would make it very different from 'whiteboarding' from a software engineering interview. In software engineering interviews, most of the time the interviewer will try to have prepared questions that the interviewee has NOT seen before. To make it more like an audition, the qu…

It's not unusual for auditions to music schools to include either 'prima vista' - where you play from the sheet - or 'secunda vista' - where you get a few minutes of prep time.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Do other fields of engineering have an equivalent to whiteboarding?

#34

Post by avh02 »

closeparen wrote: post #27
lazulicurio wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely just my opinion, but I think this is because most people (both employers and potential employees) are focusing on the more vocational aspects of programming, whereas university is more theory-based. I know that I would not have gotten as much out of my degree if I hadn't had prior experience with programming prior to university. It's tough to appreciate why complexity analysis is important if you've never…

I could not disagree more strongly that university is theory-based. The three-class theory sequence I took was a mildly annoying sideshow. The meat of my university's CS program was in Networks and Distributed Systems, Database Systems, Operating Systems, Programming Languages, Functional Programming, Computer Security, Parallel Computing, Sensing and Perception, Machine Learning, Graphics, Scientific Visualization,…

jeez, what uni is this? I kind of like the sound of it.

Re: Ask HN: Do other fields of engineering have an equivalent to whiteboarding?

#35

Post by lithos »

When interviewing for a field tech (electrical TS&R work) position I've been put in front of unfamiliar equipment to troubleshoot.

Some companies will end up sending you for testing. Which normally have less than a 5%-10% pass rate.

Although the entire process is far more pragmatic than programmer interviews from what I've seen here. I was also able to expect far more replies back with results than programmers do here.

Re: Ask HN: Do other fields of engineering have an equivalent to whiteboarding?

#36

Post by casion »

gnud wrote: post #30
BigCatStuff wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When auditioning, would the applicant know which pieces of music they will be required to perform beforehand? I am assuming that they do, which would make it very different from 'whiteboarding' from a software engineering interview. In software engineering interviews, most of the time the interviewer will try to have prepared questions that the interviewee has NOT seen before. To make it more like an audition, the qu…

It's not unusual for auditions to music schools to include either 'prima vista' - where you play from the sheet - or 'secunda vista' - where you get a few minutes of prep time.

I auditioned at a number of schools and prima vista was the only thing.

At a few of the auditions they would interrupt you if it appeared that you knew the piece and give you something else.

Honestly rather annoying. Even though I entered teaching, I did a lot of time in the pit and sight reading was never a skill that was needed. I can understand the need to weed out people with no/basic reading skills, but the idea that you need to be high-level fluency (particularly with oddly notated pieces!) is nonsense.

The worst part was that most students just gamed it. They would purposely ritard some part just to make it look like they weren't familiar with a piece they could play blindfolded. The net result is that the school I ended up selecting had a number of non-fluent readers that wasted everyone's time at some point because they were so slow!

/rant

Re: Ask HN: Do other fields of engineering have an equivalent to whiteboarding?

#37

Post by cagenut »

It kills me that "whiteboarding" has become shorthand for "bad developer interview technique". Meanwhile I'm over here whiteboarding my ass off as a communication tool for complex systems where its much more effective to walk someone through it as you draw it than to present pre-made slides. I love whiteboarding.

Re: Ask HN: Do other fields of engineering have an equivalent to whiteboarding?

#39

Post by jasonkolb »

It's really sad to me that whiteboard is thought of as an interviewing tool. Opened this thread thinking "cool, maybe there are some brainstorming techniques I haven't heard of from other industries" and there's only stuff about interviewing techniques.

Maybe I can help. If I need to explore some ideas and there's no whiteboard handy I write on the windows instead. Gotta be prepared when inspiration hits!

Re: Ask HN: Do other fields of engineering have an equivalent to whiteboarding?

#40

Post by yulaow »

cagenut wrote: post #37

It kills me that "whiteboarding" has become shorthand for "bad developer interview technique". Meanwhile I'm over here whiteboarding my ass off as a communication tool for complex systems where its much more effective to walk someone through it as you draw it than to present pre-made slides. I love whiteboarding.

Whiteboarding or any way of writing notes/diagrams on paper or on any sharable medium is an extremly good communication tool, no one would say otherwise.

Said that, it is ALSO a very bad developer interview technique.

Think if anytime you use it to communicate with a team coworker you had to feel like "I must make this good in these next 20minutes or I am getting fired" (with the bonus of not knowing what the whiteboarding will be about) and this is how feels a potential candidate when doing these types of interviews

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