Homeowners in Foreclosure Find a Rent-Free Approach • Hacker News Board

Re: Homeowners in Foreclosure Find a Rent-Free Approach

#31

Post by stellar678 » Tue, Jun 01, 2010, 6:48 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #19

stellar678 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it interesting that debt is always couched in moral terms for individuals, but business terms for corporations. Somehow it's immoral for individuals to work a system for their advantage, but it's standard operating procedure for a business.

That's a straw man argument, isn't it? The fact that some pundit somewhere drew a line between Morgan Stanley's contracts and Joe Smith's contracts doesn't mean we have to be held to a different standard on Hacker News. Or, more directly: it's immmoral for businesses to violate contracts too. What's the rest of your argument?

This probably won't satisfy you because it's hard to quantify, but: In my experience, the general discourse treats individual debt as a moral responsibility and corporate debt as a contractual/legal responsibility. Which is interesting because people are pretty strongly moved by moral judgements about their actions.

Re: Homeowners in Foreclosure Find a Rent-Free Approach

#32

Post by MichaelSalib » Tue, Jun 01, 2010, 6:49 PM UTC

_mattb wrote: post #27

tptacek wrote: post #3

What these people are doing is exactly equivalent to what tendentious tenants do to avoid eviction. We almost uniformly hold those tenants in contempt; they're perpetrating a fraud. The only difference here is that it's banks holding the loans, not independent landlords. I see how you could sympathize with a ruthless defaulting homeowner; after all, what else are they going to do? Are we really asking them to vacate…

I'm guessing their credit will be shot? But I don't really know how that system works. Would they ever be approved for a loan again?

Strategic defaulters will have their credit shot, but their credit record should return to normal after seven years.

Re: Homeowners in Foreclosure Find a Rent-Free Approach

#33

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Jun 01, 2010, 6:49 PM UTC

MichaelSalib wrote: post #10

yummyfajitas wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who stay in their homes prevent squatters from moving in... Squatters living in a home owned by a bank prevent squatters from moving in?

There are different varieties of squatters. Drug addicted transients are not equivalent to small business owners with roots in the local community who happen to have an emotional attachment to that particular house. Given the choice of squatters, I'd prefer to have squatters with a non-zero income.

I'm taking issue with your language. It's not "their house", it's the bank's house. They are squatters themselves, so they don't keep squatters out.

If you said "people who squat in homes they used to own may perform maintenance and keep out a worse breed of squatters than themselves", I would have had no objection.

Re: Homeowners in Foreclosure Find a Rent-Free Approach

#34

Post by tptacek » Tue, Jun 01, 2010, 6:50 PM UTC

MichaelSalib wrote: post #12

MichaelSalib wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In economic terms, two wrongs can certainly make a right. In many cases, having these people move out would serve no purpose other than to destroy the houses' values as well as the values of the surrounding homes. People who stay in their homes prevent squatters from moving in and perform some maintenance. Banks often make economically foolish decisions regarding foreclosure for a whole host of reasons. Plus, after r…

I forgot that many people on HN can't distinguish between normative and positive claims, so let me clarify: I don't think this behavior is terribly ethical, but I do think it can produce more efficient economic outcomes. There are many of unethical acts that improve economic efficiency.

I agree with you that the likely effect of them turning in the keys to their houses is that those houses will be vacant probably for the better part of a year, which will damage other good-faith occupants of neighboring houses and produce no economic good for either the lender or the buyer.

I think the only thing I could really wish for here is a system that captures some of the funds that these people are spending on trucks or business schemes and, in exchange for some long-term plan to keep them in their houses, get them to start paying back into their commitments. It is certainly true that the financial system shoulders some of the blame for this untenable situation.

A pox on all their houses, then.

Re: Homeowners in Foreclosure Find a Rent-Free Approach

#35

Post by oldgregg » Tue, Jun 01, 2010, 6:51 PM UTC

jasonlotito wrote: post #24

tptacek wrote: post #3

What these people are doing is exactly equivalent to what tendentious tenants do to avoid eviction. We almost uniformly hold those tenants in contempt; they're perpetrating a fraud. The only difference here is that it's banks holding the loans, not independent landlords. I see how you could sympathize with a ruthless defaulting homeowner; after all, what else are they going to do? Are we really asking them to vacate…

A family member of mine is in the same position: they bought a house, and now they can't afford it. I'd love to feel as if the bank should be held accountable, but at the same time, I look at my family members, what he does, how they spend their money, and I can't feel sympathy. They dug their own hole. And yet, the amount of entitlement coming from them is just insane. They feel as if it's not their fault; they poin…

Hard to believe that 10 years ago you would often hear your average middle class white person say "those black people need to get a job!" -- when was the last time you heard that? An atmosphere of entitlements is overtaking the middle class in this country and it doesn't bode well for our future. The housing crisis will resolve itself in a few years-- the entitlement mentality lasts forever -- and destroys civilizations.

Re: Homeowners in Foreclosure Find a Rent-Free Approach

#36

Post by tptacek » Tue, Jun 01, 2010, 6:52 PM UTC

oldgregg wrote: post #35

jasonlotito wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A family member of mine is in the same position: they bought a house, and now they can't afford it. I'd love to feel as if the bank should be held accountable, but at the same time, I look at my family members, what he does, how they spend their money, and I can't feel sympathy. They dug their own hole. And yet, the amount of entitlement coming from them is just insane. They feel as if it's not their fault; they poin…

Hard to believe that 10 years ago you would often hear your average middle class white person say "those black people need to get a job!" -- when was the last time you heard that? An atmosphere of entitlements is overtaking the middle class in this country and it doesn't bode well for our future. The housing crisis will resolve itself in a few years-- the entitlement mentality lasts forever -- and destroys civilizati…

The entitlement mentality is hardly the only thing holding back the economies of Europe.

Re: Homeowners in Foreclosure Find a Rent-Free Approach

#37

Post by MichaelSalib » Tue, Jun 01, 2010, 6:55 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #20

MichaelSalib wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't edited for accuracy or logic or fact-checking or bias In general, I do not expect main stream publications to be able to edit articles regarding economics. Journalists and editors are astonishingly ignorant of basic economics, to say nothing of statistics or law. There's a reason that economics professor Dean Baker keeps an entire blog devoted to correcting the idiocies and distortions found in traditional…

Your argument here seems to boil down to, "the Washington Post has inadequate editorial standards for business reporting, so we should be happy to cite outlets that have literally no editorial standards for business reporting." Sorry, I disagree. But you should read McSweeney's. It often pretty excellent.

It is not just the WAPO. I've seen the same appalling ignorance in many publications. I've also talked to journalists and I feel very confident in saying that people in journalism generally don't have the skills needed to fact checking in this area. Beyond that, "fact checking" as traditionally done is a very narrow activity that allows all manner of deceptions to be published. Your childlike faith in the utility of traditional news organizations to ensure accuracy by fact-checking is charming, but also ridiculous.

And McSweeny's certainly does have editorial standards. Libel is still a crime, which both McSweeny's and the attorney who wrote the article are very much aware of.

Re: Homeowners in Foreclosure Find a Rent-Free Approach

#38

Post by MichaelSalib » Tue, Jun 01, 2010, 6:56 PM UTC

edw519 wrote: post #14

“They’re all crooks." Let me see if I got this right... You borrowed money. Now you choose not to make the monthly payment that you have already agreed to pay. And spend that money on other stuff. And you call them the crooks?

Maybe both parties are crooks? This is not a zero sum game...they can both be crooks at the same time.

Re: Homeowners in Foreclosure Find a Rent-Free Approach

#39

Post by abstractbill » Tue, Jun 01, 2010, 6:57 PM UTC

jasonlotito wrote: post #24

tptacek wrote: post #3

What these people are doing is exactly equivalent to what tendentious tenants do to avoid eviction. We almost uniformly hold those tenants in contempt; they're perpetrating a fraud. The only difference here is that it's banks holding the loans, not independent landlords. I see how you could sympathize with a ruthless defaulting homeowner; after all, what else are they going to do? Are we really asking them to vacate…

A family member of mine is in the same position: they bought a house, and now they can't afford it. I'd love to feel as if the bank should be held accountable, but at the same time, I look at my family members, what he does, how they spend their money, and I can't feel sympathy. They dug their own hole. And yet, the amount of entitlement coming from them is just insane. They feel as if it's not their fault; they poin…

...had a child before marriage...

I agree with a lot of your comment, but this bit seemed very oddly out of place. What would be wrong with having a child before getting married? It's not something I chose to do, but most of the other things you mentioned have fairly predictable negative financial consequences, whereas I can't think of anything for this one.

Re: Homeowners in Foreclosure Find a Rent-Free Approach

#40

Post by jasonlotito » Tue, Jun 01, 2010, 6:58 PM UTC

oldgregg wrote: post #35

jasonlotito wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A family member of mine is in the same position: they bought a house, and now they can't afford it. I'd love to feel as if the bank should be held accountable, but at the same time, I look at my family members, what he does, how they spend their money, and I can't feel sympathy. They dug their own hole. And yet, the amount of entitlement coming from them is just insane. They feel as if it's not their fault; they poin…

Hard to believe that 10 years ago you would often hear your average middle class white person say "those black people need to get a job!" -- when was the last time you heard that? An atmosphere of entitlements is overtaking the middle class in this country and it doesn't bode well for our future. The housing crisis will resolve itself in a few years-- the entitlement mentality lasts forever -- and destroys civilizati…

My wife helps out. She finds job postings online and sends them to him. She does this often, even though we are in different countries. She doesn't understand why he can't get a temporary job right now in the mean time.

To be fair, he did get back into school and seems to be doing well, but still, until he finds a full time job in his field, he could get anything anywhere and at least make a few dollars more for the family.

Meh... I could go on. But yeah. Same tired story.