Amazon's Tepid Response to Counterfeiters Frustrates Sellers • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon's Tepid Response to Counterfeiters Frustrates Sellers

#51

Post by jrs235 » Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 4:48 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #46

phil21 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it can say "Sold by Amazon" and still be co-mingled stock some third party seller tossed the same SKU on. So there is no way to even know who the actual seller is. Amazon could end this particular fraud literally overnight by no longer co-mingling, but I suspect that would be wildly expensive for them to do. Your method is fine for actual accounts selling scammy things - the problem is when those…

FBA sellers can opt-out of commingled stock. If you know an FBA seller sells authentic goods, you're better off buying from them than from Amazon.com or an unknown FBA seller. There is no way to know before buying whether an FBA seller uses commingled stock or not; it would just be a matter of recognizing the merchant from past authentic purchases or credible word of mouth.

Amazon needs to signal co-mingled and non-co-mingled stock so buyers can purchase with more certainty. The problem is Amazon doesn't want to admit to their co-mingled mess yet. It will hurt their brand admitting that there is a material difference between co-mingled and non-co-mingled stock.

Re: Amazon's Tepid Response to Counterfeiters Frustrates Sellers

#52

Post by eeeeeeeeeeeee » Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 4:48 PM UTC

Lasher wrote: post #4

I purchased Quickbooks Pro 2017 (PC) on Amazon last week, said it was "sold by Intuit" so wasn't even supposed to be an FBA (fulfilled by Amazon). Figured if it costs no more I might as well get the physical disk. What showed up was a DVD case with a very clearly photocopied cover for a Mac version with a Verbatim CDR inside and a hacked version of the software. Amazon processed the refund just fine but didn't seem p…

I don't even buy from any third party sellers, including fulfilled by Amazon, for this reason.

Amazons response has been wholly inadequate thus far. Brands are destroyed because people get counterfeit crap and review the entire product/brand.

Why can't Amazon show the merchant used for every review and let people aggregate the reviews of each product by the merchant and product? Right now you have to check the overall merchant and hope you can trust it. This would be a good data point to watch too (if reviews for one merchant are significantly different than others for the same product). That should trigger a review of the merchant by Amazon.

Instead, Amazon conflates all product reviews as if they all came from the same place. Which is another reason reviews are hit or miss -- people reviewing how the seller got it to them, how fast, or in what condition.

Re: Amazon's Tepid Response to Counterfeiters Frustrates Sellers

#53

Post by jdietrich » Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 4:49 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #41

new299 wrote: post #30

Counterfeit products seem to becoming a near universal problem. It's not just amazon, but other marketplaces (eBay, taobao etc). Even seems like major electronic component suppliers fall foul of this sometimes (digikey). I can really only see three solutions: 1. We just buy everything direct from the supplier. Companies like amazon manage distribution. 2. We provide tools to allow the consumer to track the supply cha…

> 2. We provide tools to allow the consumer to track the supply chain process. Products shipped with unique QR code, printed at the of manufacture? Users able to verify that this product was actually manufactured by the stated supplier. Could be an interesting startup idea? Yes, it does sound like a fantastic opportunity! How would it work though? Every single instance of product would have to have its own id that wo…

The method you describe is already in widespread use by Chinese manufacturers.

Re: Amazon's Tepid Response to Counterfeiters Frustrates Sellers

#54

Post by eeeeeeeeeeeee » Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 4:49 PM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #5

Amazon is a cluster all-around. They can't keep counterfeits off (I just recently got a 'samsung' battery that would only charge to 80%), and they can't police legit products correctly either. I've seen tons of horror stories from owners of FBA private labels who'v had their products pulled by Amazon for being 'counterfeit' because one of their competitors reported them in an attempt to reduce competition. Takes week…

Wouldn't Amazon be potentially liable if they sold a counterfeit battery as something it isn't and that battery ends up hurting someone?

Re: Amazon's Tepid Response to Counterfeiters Frustrates Sellers

#55

Post by new299 » Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 4:51 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #41

new299 wrote: post #30

Counterfeit products seem to becoming a near universal problem. It's not just amazon, but other marketplaces (eBay, taobao etc). Even seems like major electronic component suppliers fall foul of this sometimes (digikey). I can really only see three solutions: 1. We just buy everything direct from the supplier. Companies like amazon manage distribution. 2. We provide tools to allow the consumer to track the supply cha…

> 2. We provide tools to allow the consumer to track the supply chain process. Products shipped with unique QR code, printed at the of manufacture? Users able to verify that this product was actually manufactured by the stated supplier. Could be an interesting startup idea? Yes, it does sound like a fantastic opportunity! How would it work though? Every single instance of product would have to have its own id that wo…

I would say a peel off tab covering the code might work so you know it's been tampered with.

A few thing could be used to prevent copying. Users could be allowed to register a name on the verification page. If you try and register a product and it's already registered you know it's fake.

I don't think it would work in every instance. But it would increase costs to the counterfeiter. Hopefully to the point that it becomes economically unsustainable.

Re: Amazon's Tepid Response to Counterfeiters Frustrates Sellers

#56

Post by new299 » Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 4:53 PM UTC

scurvy wrote: post #42

new299 wrote: post #30

Counterfeit products seem to becoming a near universal problem. It's not just amazon, but other marketplaces (eBay, taobao etc). Even seems like major electronic component suppliers fall foul of this sometimes (digikey). I can really only see three solutions: 1. We just buy everything direct from the supplier. Companies like amazon manage distribution. 2. We provide tools to allow the consumer to track the supply cha…

Even #1 isn't 100% safe. Ubiquiti had counterfeit product get mixed into their own fulfillment chain. Let me repeat that, they had counterfeit product make its way into their own fulfillment chain, which was then sold legitimately to customers. Then again, this is the same company that fell prey to Nigerian spammers. Wouldn't go near any of their products as they definitely have some roomtemp IQ's in that joint.

Ubiuiti products seem really nice. However I've heard many bad things about their management culture.

I really don't get how you can get fake product into you own fulfillment chain. But I guess if you sign off on fake invoices that could happen. :)

Re: Amazon's Tepid Response to Counterfeiters Frustrates Sellers

#57

Post by cookiecaper » Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 4:53 PM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #5

Amazon is a cluster all-around. They can't keep counterfeits off (I just recently got a 'samsung' battery that would only charge to 80%), and they can't police legit products correctly either. I've seen tons of horror stories from owners of FBA private labels who'v had their products pulled by Amazon for being 'counterfeit' because one of their competitors reported them in an attempt to reduce competition. Takes week…

Be careful jumping on the Walmart train. Their online marketplace has recently started including third-party sellers as well. I'm not sure how they police them or if they're any better than Amazon, but you're not implicitly free from these concerns just by going to Walmart.com instead of Amazon.com. I would guess that Walmart doesn't commingle stock from third-party sellers, since it's such a bad idea, but I don't know.

Jet.com also does third-party sellers, but I hear they are very strict and work hard to make sure that all their sellers are authentic.

Amazon has made itself the de-facto e-tail platform. We're already seeing a Google-like effect from them, where if Amazon is not happy with you, your business can be destroyed overnight. There are consultants similar to SEO consultants who try to ensure that your products always "win the buy box", some of which is certainly done through attempting to hit competitors with false negatives as you've described, much like the negative links that competitors try to register against one another to hurt their Google ranking.

I really hope that some of the other players in this game can get together and do something to stop another monopolistic pre-eminence. Between Shopify, ShopRunner, Walmart, and other brick-and-mortars who are jealous of Amazon, it should be feasible to create an Amazon-ish experience that will at least keep one or two other big competitors in the game. Let's do it before it's too late!

Re: Amazon's Tepid Response to Counterfeiters Frustrates Sellers

#58

Post by cookiecaper » Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

trapperkeeper79 wrote: post #7

I bought some Pokemon bracelets (yeah .. I know) for some family members. I have a big suspicion that they are counterfeit. The boxes had asian writing on them, and it did not seem Nintendo-like. The device itself has horrible connectivity with the game and phones - almost unusable. I'm pretty ticked off. As a consumer, I had no good way to verify that the device is not counterfeit. For similar situations, I actually…

Character stuff is rife with counterfeits. You have to be really careful before you buy on Amazon, or be content with cheap-o knockoffs that break/degrade easily (which, to be honest, are sometimes acceptable for a big discount).

Re: Amazon's Tepid Response to Counterfeiters Frustrates Sellers

#59

Post by greenyoda » Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 4:57 PM UTC

jghn wrote: post #27

phil21 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it can say "Sold by Amazon" and still be co-mingled stock some third party seller tossed the same SKU on. So there is no way to even know who the actual seller is. Amazon could end this particular fraud literally overnight by no longer co-mingling, but I suspect that would be wildly expensive for them to do. Your method is fine for actual accounts selling scammy things - the problem is when those…

Right. My bet has been that they've done the math and handling returns works out to be cheaper for them than stopping the comingling issue. Another aspect is that it's not always obvious that you wound up with a counterfeit. I've had products where the longevity was not what I expected and when I look more closely it was in fact a fake. However by that point it isn't worth returning.

"they've done the math and handling returns works out to be cheaper for them than stopping the comingling issue..."

It may be cheaper in terms of short-term profits (which is what they can measure), but in the long run, it could be doing irreparable damage to the Amazon brand (which is much harder to measure).

I've been an Amazon customer since they first started out as an on-line bookstore, but at this point, I'm hesitant about every item I buy (even though I haven't personally been the victim of a counterfeiting scam). At this point, I'm ready to start exploring their competitors.

Re: Amazon's Tepid Response to Counterfeiters Frustrates Sellers

#60

Post by cookiecaper » Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 4:57 PM UTC

new299 wrote: post #56

scurvy wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even #1 isn't 100% safe. Ubiquiti had counterfeit product get mixed into their own fulfillment chain. Let me repeat that, they had counterfeit product make its way into their own fulfillment chain, which was then sold legitimately to customers. Then again, this is the same company that fell prey to Nigerian spammers. Wouldn't go near any of their products as they definitely have some roomtemp IQ's in that joint.

Ubiuiti products seem really nice. However I've heard many bad things about their management culture. I really don't get how you can get fake product into you own fulfillment chain. But I guess if you sign off on fake invoices that could happen. :)

I'm assuming it happened when buying from their FBA store. That would happen because they didn't tick the box preventing Amazon from commingling inventory and someone else listed a fake "Ubiquiti router".