Howard University opens a new campus at the Googleplex • Hacker News Board

Re: Howard University opens a new campus at the Googleplex

#131

Post by komali2 » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:17 PM UTC

uncletaco wrote: post #88

komali2 wrote: post #57

It's nitpicky and maybe trivial, but I'm happy to see them use the word "Black" so prominently. I always got peeved at "African American." If we're going to discuss race , nationality doesn't really figure into the equation. Then again, if you start talking scientifically, the concept of "race" is shaky at best, but there's no denying the cultural implications of the idea.

It is nitpicky but not so trivial. As I understand it, once upon a time you would have German Americans and Italian Americans as distinctive subgroups in the United States with their own unique cultures. But Negroes couldn't really say they were Nigerian-American or Angolan-American, largely because most colored people did not know exactly where in Africa they came from. In a historical context it makes sense that a…

Hm, good point regarding Asian American. Using "yellow" seems ridiculous but is value-wise the same as saying "black." And I can't just claim "just get rid of it all and call'm people!" because there are very useful reasons to be able to define general race (for example, when reporting a crime, you give gender, race, hair, clothing, approximate height). Even that though will become trickier as the genetic pool equalizes.

Dunno man, good point. I hadn't thought of it because all of my "Asian-American" friends have very distinguishable country-specific characteristics that they can identify because their family migrated more recently than your average Black family's, and they don't have a history of slavery obfuscating their origins.

EDIT: Thinking more on it, I believe I'm used to hearing "Asian" to describe race, as opposed to "Asian-American" to describe heritage or nationality.

EDIT2: And also thinking more, I believe my friends use "FOB" to describe an actual Asian, i.e. someone born in Asia. Which probably will be a horribly offensive slur one day and I'll be the 2060 equivalent of "the grandpa that says 'negro' way too much."

Re: Howard University opens a new campus at the Googleplex

#132

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:19 PM UTC

kukac wrote: post #77

misterbowfinger wrote: post #52

I want to comment on the anti Affirmative Action arguments here. I went to a really prestigious high school in New York City. For the summer of my junior year, our AP Computer Science teacher hooked up a few of us with internships at the finance firms, specifically in tech (Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, etc.). Now, sure, I did really well and studied really hard to get into my high school. However, I did practically…

Not all white people are as privileged as you.

[deleted]

Re: Howard University opens a new campus at the Googleplex

#133

Post by misterbowfinger » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:23 PM UTC

vostok wrote: post #59

misterbowfinger wrote: post #52

I want to comment on the anti Affirmative Action arguments here. I went to a really prestigious high school in New York City. For the summer of my junior year, our AP Computer Science teacher hooked up a few of us with internships at the finance firms, specifically in tech (Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, etc.). Now, sure, I did really well and studied really hard to get into my high school. However, I did practically…

> I knew just about as much as any other AP CS kid in the country. I think you do your high school a disservice. Almost everyone I have interviewed from your school has done better than average.

Doubt it. We're all idiots :-P

After graduation, sure we probably do better than average. But at the moment I received the internship, my skills were no more or less qualified than any other CS student. And, at the end of the day, am I really that much better of a developer than most people? I really doubt that.

Re: Howard University opens a new campus at the Googleplex

#134

Post by tomlock » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:23 PM UTC

srssays wrote: post #114

cercatrova wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't that how you achieve systematic equality? For example, say there are two races X and Y. X is the overachiever (doesn't even have to be a majority, there could be a 50/50 population), while Y is the underachiever, for whatever historical reasons these two groups faced. So, to get Y on the same level as X and restore a meritocracy, you must admit more of Y, even if X does better in some cases. Meritocracy onl…

It's absolutely fine to give extra advantages to people with low incomes. That's economic progressivism. It's wrong to give extra advantages based on genetics, essentially saying that some people "genetically poor" or "genetically rich", which is what Affirmative Action does.

That's exactly why affirmative action exists:

It's wrong to give extra advantages based on genetics. Therefore, giving an extra advantage to someone who is not given those other extra advantages, evens the score.

Re: Howard University opens a new campus at the Googleplex

#135

Post by bante » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:24 PM UTC

xienze wrote: post #20

throwa34567 wrote: post #6

I'm very happy to see this. I grew up in a town that, before I was born, decided to actively integrate (from being an historically all white, wealthy suburb) and I'm certain I'm better off for growing up in a diverse community. I'm in mountain view now and it's all "silicon valley white", and something actively needs to be done. I worry when I realize my kid can go a week or more without seeing a black person, and I'…

So, let's say you were born in China. Would you have a similar level of anxiety about never seeing anyone outside of your ethnic group? I find it very odd how white people are seemingly the only ethnic group so hung up on seeing people of different races one day-to-day basis. On a related note, if being around so many white people bothers you so much, why aren't you living in, say, East Palo Alto or Richmond?

Eh, considering that much of the social pressure of Chinese society presumably stem from a lack of cultural diversity, I would very much be bothered never seeing anyone outside my ethnic group if I'd grown up in China. I'd probably want to move anywhere else just for that fact.

Re: Howard University opens a new campus at the Googleplex

#136

Post by misterbowfinger » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:29 PM UTC

entee wrote: post #75

misterbowfinger wrote: post #52

I want to comment on the anti Affirmative Action arguments here. I went to a really prestigious high school in New York City. For the summer of my junior year, our AP Computer Science teacher hooked up a few of us with internships at the finance firms, specifically in tech (Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, etc.). Now, sure, I did really well and studied really hard to get into my high school. However, I did practically…

I think what you're saying is a great way to describe what advantages accrue with wealth, even middle class wealth. Essentially you had the system work in your favor and in turn knew how to work to system. You got a warm intro into an internship, this helped you get into college afterwards. These kinds of subtle boosts are mostly a function of being in the right place within the system and knowing how to pull the rig…

Another thing to consider is that I worked the system in New York City. And the system in NYC has a fair amount of access and resources, if you work it right. Why not create a similar amount of access and resources at Howard University?

I don't see that as traditional Affirmative Action, which we primarily think of happening during an admissions process. This is just creating more channels to resources in tech, which is entirely reasonable, even from a conservative economics perspective.

Re: Howard University opens a new campus at the Googleplex

#137

Post by misterbowfinger » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:32 PM UTC

reader5000 wrote: post #62

misterbowfinger wrote: post #52

I want to comment on the anti Affirmative Action arguments here. I went to a really prestigious high school in New York City. For the summer of my junior year, our AP Computer Science teacher hooked up a few of us with internships at the finance firms, specifically in tech (Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, etc.). Now, sure, I did really well and studied really hard to get into my high school. However, I did practically…

Because you're not the person AA hurts. AA doesnt hurt top 1% people, it hurts say top 10% people who are in the wrong ethnic group and lose out to people in the correct ethnic group. Just ask a lower class Asian person with top 10% MCAT scores, and why he lost a med school spot to a middle class URM person with top 20% scores.

citation?

Re: Howard University opens a new campus at the Googleplex

#138

Post by pm90 » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:37 PM UTC

entee wrote: post #75

misterbowfinger wrote: post #52

I want to comment on the anti Affirmative Action arguments here. I went to a really prestigious high school in New York City. For the summer of my junior year, our AP Computer Science teacher hooked up a few of us with internships at the finance firms, specifically in tech (Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, etc.). Now, sure, I did really well and studied really hard to get into my high school. However, I did practically…

I think what you're saying is a great way to describe what advantages accrue with wealth, even middle class wealth. Essentially you had the system work in your favor and in turn knew how to work to system. You got a warm intro into an internship, this helped you get into college afterwards. These kinds of subtle boosts are mostly a function of being in the right place within the system and knowing how to pull the rig…

I have mixed feelings about AA as well. All of these subtle boosts as you call them come from more than just being in a school, although I agree that helps a LOT more than not being in the school. There is the obvious advantage of living in a culture that values such things as education, career progress etc. The most important is probably encouraging and supportive parents.

In short, I think we need to do more than just let people from other communities simply join our prestigious institutions but to recognize that these institutions need to be changed to help these students achieve what students from other backgrounds get as well.

I know all the meritocracy crowd here will come after me with pitchforks for saying this, but I do think it is justified in putting all that effort into helping people that are born in disadvantaged families. Is it fair to the other kids who may have worked really hard but get less attention simply because of their family background? Maybe...but they were lucky to be born in a great family in the first place...

I too got very lucky by being born in a great family.... I'm eternally grateful for it having helped me to have a happy and fulfilling life. I hope others can have a shot at such a life as well.

Re: Howard University opens a new campus at the Googleplex

#139

Post by reader5000 » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:43 PM UTC

cercatrova wrote: post #103

reader5000 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you're not the person AA hurts. AA doesnt hurt top 1% people, it hurts say top 10% people who are in the wrong ethnic group and lose out to people in the correct ethnic group. Just ask a lower class Asian person with top 10% MCAT scores, and why he lost a med school spot to a middle class URM person with top 20% scores.

But isn't that how you achieve systematic equality? For example, say there are two races X and Y. X is the overachiever (doesn't even have to be a majority, there could be a 50/50 population), while Y is the underachiever, for whatever historical reasons these two groups faced. So, to get Y on the same level as X and restore a meritocracy, you must admit more of Y, even if X does better in some cases. Meritocracy onl…

How does "disparities of the past" account for modern-day disparities between e.g. Latinos and Indians? Both relatively recent to the US in large numbers; Indians seem much more represented in tech than Latinos. The proposition that all modern day population disparities are explained by historical "evil white people" seems tenuous at best. Kicking deserving top 30% people out of middle class life tracks because you insist reality must adhere to your sense of statistical proportion seems unjust to me.

Re: Howard University opens a new campus at the Googleplex

#140

Post by _dps » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:44 PM UTC

misterbowfinger wrote: post #52

I want to comment on the anti Affirmative Action arguments here. I went to a really prestigious high school in New York City. For the summer of my junior year, our AP Computer Science teacher hooked up a few of us with internships at the finance firms, specifically in tech (Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, etc.). Now, sure, I did really well and studied really hard to get into my high school. However, I did practically…

> However, I did practically nothing to earn that internship ...

As someone who spends a lot of time in Europe, I find this exclusively-individualistic view of "earning advantage" to be too limiting, and characteristic of US ideas about class and privilege (Europe has its own, different problems).

Yes, you personally didn't earn that specific thing. But there's a very high chance that your family unit earned itself into being in a position to collect that "free" (at the point of accrual) benefit.

I think the most fundamental problem we face right now in terms of equalizing the game for historically disadvantaged people (an important goal worthy of some sacrifices) is how to square that with the very natural, and IMO totally fair, desire for parents to be able to pass some forms of fairly-earned advantage on to their children.