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Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

theatlantic.com

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Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#141

Post by _delirium »

VLM wrote: post #53
danpalmer wrote: post #15

I call myself a Software Engineer specifically because I see it as different to being a programmer. I don't just write code, I try to solve problems in a rigorous and maintainable way, while being aware of the wider implications of my work to the business, our customers, and anyone else who might be affected by it. Sure we don't have the same regulation as civil engineers, but I try to do my work in the same spirit.…

"I try to solve problems in a rigorous and maintainable way" The original linked article was written by someone who's never engineered anything and clearly has no social or cultural connection with any engineers, but I can see in one line that you and I are at least partially on the same page about what engineering is, which is not much of an endorsement for the article. The critical difference between science, engin…

The author of the article is indeed not an engineer, but he did work as a programmer at various startups for about 5 years (before he changed careers by doing a PhD in another field), which I believe is much of his context for this article. It doesn't take a lot of benefit of the doubt to believe that during that period, he ran into a number of fellow programmers who called themselves "engineers" who were not really doing anything resembling engineering.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#142

Post by creatornator »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #101

I think a lot (not saying all/most) of these comments can be summed up as: No, Software Engineers are not engineers on a technical level but they do the work of engineers[1] and the fact the industry has not caught up doesn't make what they do any less engineering. [1] They are using math to solve real world problems that have billions of dollars and in many cases lives depending on them. For one, I am sick of being…

Your main point aside, your experience having taken more math and physics courses than "technicians", and bearing "more responsibility in dollars and livelihoods and use math more extensively in my job than most mechanical and electrical engineers I graduated with" is anecdotal evidence. I am not even done with my BS/MS EE degree and I've already taken more math and physics than my CS peers will ever take. This will change from college to college and degree to degree. You are right about the state of firmware though--security practices in IoT are often pretty terrible. Perhaps that points to an inadequacy in the licensing/regulation system that we have in place. I think most people in the comments could agree that the word "Engineer" implies rigorous certification--once software development has the same, then it could be considered Engineering.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#143

Post by dczmer »

this is like the fifth time i've seen this same flame-bait article reposted.

Engineer:

- a person qualified in a branch of engineering, especially as a professional.

- the operator or supervisor of an engine, especially a railroad locomotive or the engine on an aircraft or ship.

- a skillful contriver or originator of something.

if you're upset because you don't feel like simple programmers should call themselves "engineers" because they didn't spend 7 years in an expensive college to earn the title, or because they are not making physical bridges and buildings, consider the following:

1. software "engineers" build (software) machines for people to use. they have to take technical requirements and turn them into structure and functionality.

2. most software design is an iterative process: you have to make solid foundations to build upon and it's a skill that has to be acquired through experience. i.e. you build infrastructure.

3. it's not rocket science, but programming (and related skills like network administration) are highly technical and take lots of practice and study to become proficient

4. often have to build things within a constrained or otherwise limited context. given a problem to solve and a list of requirements and constraints, design a solution

Now, that being said, not every "engineer" is a good engineer.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#144

Post by throwaway2016a »

creatornator wrote: post #142
throwaway2016a wrote: post #101

I think a lot (not saying all/most) of these comments can be summed up as: No, Software Engineers are not engineers on a technical level but they do the work of engineers[1] and the fact the industry has not caught up doesn't make what they do any less engineering. [1] They are using math to solve real world problems that have billions of dollars and in many cases lives depending on them. For one, I am sick of being…

Your main point aside, your experience having taken more math and physics courses than "technicians", and bearing "more responsibility in dollars and livelihoods and use math more extensively in my job than most mechanical and electrical engineers I graduated with" is anecdotal evidence. I am not even done with my BS/MS EE degree and I've already taken more math and physics than my CS peers will ever take. This will…

> This will change from college to college and degree to degree

This is most likely very true. But in that case perhaps Computer Science should be split up into two majors with one being more rigorous. In my college the CS major was very rigorous and was even accredited as an engineering program.

> I think most people in the comments could agree that the word "Engineer" implies rigorous certification

I don't agree with this one. For one reason:

Almost all my engineering friends didn't bother getting their PE after getting out of college. Many didn't even get their FE. yet they still do engineering work. I only know one or two who actually did.

At least in the US most medium size companies only have one or two PEs that sign off on projects. But the people without the PEs still use Engineer in the job title. So even within electrical, mechanical, and civil engineering having the word engineering in the job title does not imply any sort of rigorous certification.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#145

Post by eru »

Alex3917 wrote: post #136
eru wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about the money, it's about going on public record (and also about nailing down the odds you are willing to give). Interesting perspective you have. May I ask what makes you think so? Any current indications? What could go otherwise, and why? Do you see the beginning of these trends already? I would be very surprised if any of the big American big tech companies (say, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon or a…

> May I ask what makes you think so? Any current indications? What could go otherwise, and why? Do you see the beginning of these trends already? Basically there are already people quietly working on this, and when those efforts surface it's going to become apparent that it's in everyone's best interests to go along. Unlike other industries, unionization in tech isn't going to be about negotiating salaries. Those are…

Interesting. Any links to places that document these quiet efforts? (Somebody's blog post or so is perfectly fine.)

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#146

Post by eru »

vatotemking wrote: post #127
eru wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's the demand for that? Companies don't even trust university degrees right now. The most a degree gets you is a foot in the door; you'll still have to pass a grilling technical interview process. Making certificates an official requirement just raises artificial barriers to entry, but won't make people actually better. (If you have a good idea for how to certify actual competence, I am all ears. I'd like to upg…

I think the presence of this article indicates that there is a demand. > Companies don't even trust university degrees right now. This might be true in the US but may not be in other countries. I just read on a separate comment how the label "engineer" requires a degree in Canada and EU and has legal repercussions if used otherwise. > Making certificates an official requirement just raises artificial barriers to entr…

I don't know, maybe my perspective is particularly weird: I've been working in Haskell and OCaml most of my career (apart from a stint at Google) which tends to keep out the riff-raff people seem to afraid of, but I don't have a degree.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#147

Post by VLM »

_delirium wrote: post #141
VLM wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I try to solve problems in a rigorous and maintainable way" The original linked article was written by someone who's never engineered anything and clearly has no social or cultural connection with any engineers, but I can see in one line that you and I are at least partially on the same page about what engineering is, which is not much of an endorsement for the article. The critical difference between science, engin…

The author of the article is indeed not an engineer, but he did work as a programmer at various startups for about 5 years (before he changed careers by doing a PhD in another field), which I believe is much of his context for this article. It doesn't take a lot of benefit of the doubt to believe that during that period, he ran into a number of fellow programmers who called themselves "engineers" who were not really…

But the original linked article missed why they were not engineers because OP didn't know what an engineer is any more than his coworkers.

Its like watching DnD players who pretend to be wizards while playing the game, argue out of game about why everyone else isn't a real wizard yet getting it all wrong, blaming it on unavailability of components such as ground up unicorn horns, or lack of authority such as a diploma declaring them trained wizards from Hogwarts. They are correct in that they're not really wizards, but they get the reasoning for why they're not wizards wrong. Which is kinda important if the implication is that a lot of software devs want to be wizards, er engineers.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#149

Post by 13of40 »

guessmyname wrote: post #3

I recently visited Berlin to research about the German Freelance Visa [1] after being rejected by multiple local startups that were looking for Software Engineers with +3 years of work experience. I asked for feedback to one of them and was told that I should not consider myself an "engineer" because I don't have an university degree in the field, even with +9 years of work experience. I asked more people about the t…

20 years in the industry with no degree: Engineer is just a word. Call yourself that if it gets you the job.
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