The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess • Hacker News Board

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#121

Post by delegate » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:11 AM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #21

"...It does require a fairly dystopian strain of doublethink for a company to celebrate how hard and how constantly its employees must work to make a living, given that these companies are themselves setting the terms..." "setting the terms" is a bit over-the-top here. If I want to go from here to the airport, and you have a car, and I offer you twenty bucks, is that okay? Does it somehow become bad if we meet online…

If I charge money for my car repeatedly, it means I'm renting it so I'm running a business. If I do it through an app, now I'm playing by their rules, not mine. These companies are setting the terms, because they make the software, run the platform and process the payments. The article is correct, no need to bend reality any further, it's quite simple.

Maybe your wife was enjoying work during her pregnancy and it was her choice. But then maybe the woman described in the article didn't have a choice - maybe she really needed money to pay for the hospital bill and all the other expenses that come with having a child.

In a wealthy, healthy society, women shouldn't be forced (directly or by 'choice") to work until they give birth in their cars. People shouldn't have to do 'gigs' for $5 either.

That's just the state of the economy that gives rise to these kinds of rackets.

The 'system' is not just the set of rules and regulations, but also the beliefs and convictions of the people - what they think is fair and 'normal'. For some people it's normal for 10-year olds to do hard physical labor, for others it's 'normal' to eat dogs. We've decided these things aren't 'normal'.

Seeing the world through the ruthless capitalist work-till-you-die, climb to the top lens is detrimental to the future of the world. We should figure out new ways of living in a society, using technology as a way to reduce injustice, rather than generate newer and newer versions of it in exchange for profit.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#122

Post by yummyfajitas » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:12 AM UTC

ikurei wrote: post #111

yummyfajitas wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in reality, working hours have no significant upward trend. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AWHNONAG https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M0829BUSM065NNBR https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AWHAETP More people simply don't work. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART Consumption (note: figure adjusted for inflation) has only increased. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A794RX0Q048SBEA Looks like that prote…

> working hours have no significant upward trend. [...] More people simply don't work. Just curious: Do those graphics take into account the people that don't work as 0h? or has the working hours not gone up among those who do work ? > Looks like that protestant work ethic/capitalism/etc is working pretty well for us. Judging by economic growth and consumption, may be. And those might be good metrics. But are you hap…

Weekly working hours is per worker, and is overestimated, as you can find by reading the fine print on that page:

"Average weekly hours relate to the average hours per worker for which pay was received and is different from standard or scheduled hours. Factors such as unpaid absenteeism, labor turnover, part-time work, and stoppages cause average weekly hours to be lower than scheduled hours of work for an establishment. Group averages further reflect changes in the workweek of component industries. Average weekly hours are the total weekly hours divided by the employees paid for those hours."

I don't know how to measure how much happier I am as a result. Happiness measurement - particularly across cultural boundaries - is more or less meaningless.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#123

Post by tscs37 » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:12 AM UTC

andy_ppp wrote: post #117

tscs37 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please keep in mind that your costs of living are also different. In the EU you don't pay as much for the same services as in the US, especially healthcare. I'm not sure about Japan but it could be the same thing there.

Cost of living, for the same sized apartment, in Tokyo is more that San Francisco by my calculations.

Hmm, yeah, thought so, but I wasn't sure.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#124

Post by collyw » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:13 AM UTC

cyphunk wrote: post #110

seanhandley wrote: post #59

As a European (used to free healthcare, statutory maternity leave, and 25 days paid leave per year) it shocked me on first visiting America how third-world it actually feels regarding what people consider a "normal" work/life balance. People work incredibly hard, long hours and often with very little to show for it. It's surreal.

The hardest thing for me to explain to my American family, as someone living in the EU, is that a tax or burden that is evenly distributed has near 0 negative impact on collective productivity. A society where everyone is missing one leg will still function and be largely productive, up until they have to compete with a society where everyone has two legs. That leg is something like health care, maternaty leave, vaca…

Don't Europeans pay similar levels of tax to Americans?

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#125

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:13 AM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #96

seanhandley wrote: post #59

As a European (used to free healthcare, statutory maternity leave, and 25 days paid leave per year) it shocked me on first visiting America how third-world it actually feels regarding what people consider a "normal" work/life balance. People work incredibly hard, long hours and often with very little to show for it. It's surreal.

There's a Cadillac ad for US, where the narrator openly says that those Europeans enjoy their holidays, but an American works hard and gets to enjoy nice car cue cadillac car enters the scene . They openly ridicule the idea that Europeans can take a month of holiday per year. I do feel a bit sorry for that attitude. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzXze5Yza8

I wonder how many Europeans would trade their car for a Cadillac anyway, they're not very popular here because of fuel consumption and size.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#126

Post by J-dawg » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:15 AM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #112

J-dawg wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to disagree with the parent comment (because overall I prefer the European way) but we do have it worse in some ways. Salaries for professionals are markedly lower, we live in much smaller houses etc. I get the feeling that when you're winning at life in America, you're really winning. But when you're losing you're really losing. In Europe the ups and downs of life are more smoothed out.

> Salaries for professionals are markedly lower, we live in much smaller houses etc. This is an age old debate, and it's very hard to compare one vast continent to another. Regional differences between US cities and European cities are at least as large or larger than the difference between the avereages of US and European salaries/living standards etc. The difference between central manhattan and rural Apalachia is…

> whereas in Europe it's normally free

While we're correcting misconceptions, in the UK it's most definitely not free.

But I believe it's still a lot cheaper than the US. The universities are capped on the fees they can charge, and your student loan is regulated by the government (you only start paying back when you're earning over a threshold).

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#127

Post by vostok » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:15 AM UTC

intended wrote: post #108

vostok wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's ass on fire, all the time for 70 years (save 18 years before college) The crazy thing is that if you want one of those high paid jobs where you work all day and all night then you don't even get those first 18 years. I worked at such a job and an easy majority of my colleagues went to universities that require high achievements at the school level. In the best case you get your first 14 years. A large minority…

The theory is that you are selecting yourself to do things you like, which you just happen to do at the highest level. This was fine in America for a long time, but 1) As colleges degenerate from being an intellectual addition, to a pre requisite for jobs well paying or not 2) several classes of jobs disappear, especially those which could be done by common sense and training It results in posers. People who are high…

> 1) As colleges degenerate from being an intellectual addition, to a pre requisite for jobs well paying or not

At least in the Anglosphere, elite colleges were elite finishing schools before they were tickets to middle class elite jobs. I'm not sure that they are degenerating in the way that you imply.

It's also not clear to me that academic pursuits are somehow better than commercial pursuits. They're certainly not better for society.

> Very few people actually are interested in doing math or math derived work all the time, but if they don't society and the jobs market will be unmerciful.

I feel like I know more people who are interested in doing math, but are not doing math because the job market is not kind to those who do math. Indeed I am one of those people. I do agree that I took a somewhat cynical approach.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#128

Post by yummyfajitas » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:15 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #95

yummyfajitas wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in reality, working hours have no significant upward trend. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AWHNONAG https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M0829BUSM065NNBR https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AWHAETP More people simply don't work. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART Consumption (note: figure adjusted for inflation) has only increased. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A794RX0Q048SBEA Looks like that prote…

Or, you know, this whole interpretation is misleading statistical BS, and as the caption says "Factors such as unpaid absenteeism, labor turnover, part-time work, and stoppages cause average weekly hours to be lower than scheduled hours of work for an establishment" -- and lowly paid part time work has replaced steady full time employment in many sectors. (As for the per capital consumption, does it add mr. Gates wit…

All the factors you cite mean the number I provided is an overestimate. If you have any evidence we work harder than before, cite it.

Even so I'm sure they will be an increase in Joe Average's consumption, but is that because Joe Average has more buying power than a worker in the 60s, or because they have to spend more to stay afloat, as everything's more expensive,

That's definitely not the case, since the numbers I cited are adjusted for inflation.

To determine whether average Joe has more buying power, simply compare the goods and services available to him to those of his parents. That's a clear win - when I was a kid, avocados were an expensive luxury to be consumed only once in a while, and I was often bored with nothing to read.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#129

Post by beaconstudios » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:16 AM UTC

zelos wrote: post #84

supremesaboteur wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't federally funded healthcare system have problems like lower quality of healthcare, increased government spending, increased chances of corruption and creating a moral hazard of not working to earn what is consumed ?

The NHS in the UK seems to cost about $3,000/year/person. Admittedly, that probably needs to go up by $500-$1000 to provide a better service, but that seems to be comparable to federal spending in the US already?

the level of service that the NHS provides is pretty poor for people with ongoing conditions. They're great for providing emergency treatment but if you require ongoing treatment you will likely get much, much better service from BUPA or another health insurer. One thing the NHS does really well is providing downwards pressure on health insurers' rates though.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#130

Post by TulliusCicero » Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 10:17 AM UTC

J-dawg wrote: post #101

grabcocque wrote: post #75

All very interesting theories, but the US isn't an amazingly hard working nation by global standards. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time

The ranking [0] is absolutely fascinating, and contains a lot of surprises. Who knew that Mexicans work 500 hours a year more than the Japanese? I wonder if the data is being skewed somehow, perhaps by different cultural norms around women working, or something like that? If anyone can shed any light on this it would be really interesting. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#OECD_ranking

IIRC the extra hours the Japanese work tend to go unreported.