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The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

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Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#111

Post by ikurei »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #33
cbanek wrote: post #2

Seems like in America it's hard to win. Either get paid not nearly enough and struggle to make ends meet, or get a high paid high stress job, still work all day and all night. Maybe we just have too much of that protestant work ethic?

Back in reality, working hours have no significant upward trend. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AWHNONAG https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M0829BUSM065NNBR https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AWHAETP More people simply don't work. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART Consumption (note: figure adjusted for inflation) has only increased. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A794RX0Q048SBEA Looks like that prote…

> working hours have no significant upward trend. [...] More people simply don't work.

Just curious: Do those graphics take into account the people that don't work as 0h? or has the working hours not gone up among those who do work?

> Looks like that protestant work ethic/capitalism/etc is working pretty well for us.

Judging by economic growth and consumption, may be. And those might be good metrics.

But are you happier for it? Are you enjoying the rewards of your hard work?

Not trying to imply you aren't, by the way. And I say "you" because I'm a westerner, but not from the anglosaxon sphere and I don't see quite the same work ethic around me, although not too different either.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#112

Post by alkonaut »

J-dawg wrote: post #73
rmc wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And many of them think that people in Europe have it worse. That the economy would just collapse into African-levels of poverty if there was mandatory paid holidays. This is a danger of American TV shows and movie studios remaking shows for the American audiences. They don't get to see that Europe is mostly a developed place.

Not to disagree with the parent comment (because overall I prefer the European way) but we do have it worse in some ways. Salaries for professionals are markedly lower, we live in much smaller houses etc. I get the feeling that when you're winning at life in America, you're really winning. But when you're losing you're really losing. In Europe the ups and downs of life are more smoothed out.

> Salaries for professionals are markedly lower, we live in much smaller houses etc.

This is an age old debate, and it's very hard to compare one vast continent to another. Regional differences between US cities and European cities are at least as large or larger than the difference between the avereages of US and European salaries/living standards etc. The difference between central manhattan and rural Apalachia is just like the difference between the fancy parts of Stockholm and rural eastern Europe. There is just no comparison in Salaries, Life expectancy etc.

When it comes to those of us that are "winning", the difference is there, especially for some professions like doctors who can basically make a killing in the US but not in Europe. That is probably to do with that it's an economic risk/investment to get the MD in the US, whereas in Europe it's normally free. When you are a finished doctor you aren't entitled to a fancy car - we just paid your MD so you better get to work and be thankful ;)

To make a fair comparison between me (a software dev) and a comparable person in the US (in a similar metro area of ~1M people) you'd have to make a pretty tricky calculation involving costs of healthcare, childcare, money saved for retirement, pensions etc. On the bottom line I think the US person would make a bit more money, but on the other hand would have a worse work/life balance.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#113

Post by TulliusCicero »

intended wrote: post #92
cmdrfred wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in America and my wife's family is from the UK. We aren't rich by any means but we bought a small house last year and when her family flew in they kept commenting on how big our house was. Our house is about as small as you can get without living in a trailer. I'm a high school drop out and we each make less than the median nation income and I feel we are better off than if we lived in the UK. Though I admit l…

Whats the comparison of sizes like ? Really curious because if the next smaller house in size is a trailer then the UK sizes must be weirdly small.

Average home size in the UK is less than half that of the US: http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/how-big-is-a-house

US @ 77 sq meters per capita vs UK @ 33 sq meters per capita.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#114

Post by TeMPOraL »

coldtea wrote: post #55

>The Gig Economy Celebrates Working Yourself to Death As any respected free-market advocate will tell you, it's better than dying from starvation. Yeah, that's not a very high bar...

Yeah, the crucial observation here being, that in a civilized society, this should not be the only choice you're presented with.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#115

Post by Asooka »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #33
cbanek wrote: post #2

Seems like in America it's hard to win. Either get paid not nearly enough and struggle to make ends meet, or get a high paid high stress job, still work all day and all night. Maybe we just have too much of that protestant work ethic?

Back in reality, working hours have no significant upward trend. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AWHNONAG https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M0829BUSM065NNBR https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AWHAETP More people simply don't work. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART Consumption (note: figure adjusted for inflation) has only increased. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A794RX0Q048SBEA Looks like that prote…

Well yeah at least you're not working more than physically sane. But you still don't get any vacations and the like. You don't even have sick days! I mean proper sick days where you're paid and they aren't counted against some imaginary limit of how sick a person can be.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#116

Post by TulliusCicero »

tscs37 wrote: post #105
thw1438383 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atleast they get paid relatively more than in the EU. In Japan you're expected to work mad hours (read 11-12 hrs) for what is barely above minimum wage in the US! Add to that Tokyo is hecka expensive. I was quoted a salary of $ 30k for a deep learning position. Now that is third world.

Please keep in mind that your costs of living are also different. In the EU you don't pay as much for the same services as in the US, especially healthcare. I'm not sure about Japan but it could be the same thing there.

Tokyo's definitely cheaper than the bay area or NYC, but it's still not exactly cheap. The median monthly rent is low, but you have to figure that the median apartment is tiny by American standards.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#117

Post by andy_ppp »

tscs37 wrote: post #105
thw1438383 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atleast they get paid relatively more than in the EU. In Japan you're expected to work mad hours (read 11-12 hrs) for what is barely above minimum wage in the US! Add to that Tokyo is hecka expensive. I was quoted a salary of $ 30k for a deep learning position. Now that is third world.

Please keep in mind that your costs of living are also different. In the EU you don't pay as much for the same services as in the US, especially healthcare. I'm not sure about Japan but it could be the same thing there.

Cost of living, for the same sized apartment, in Tokyo is more that San Francisco by my calculations.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#118

Post by Pyxl101 »

wiz21c wrote: post #86
J-dawg wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to disagree with the parent comment (because overall I prefer the European way) but we do have it worse in some ways. Salaries for professionals are markedly lower, we live in much smaller houses etc. I get the feeling that when you're winning at life in America, you're really winning. But when you're losing you're really losing. In Europe the ups and downs of life are more smoothed out.

What you describe about really winning/loosing is inequality. I generally think that inequality is bad for populations (you may disagree, but usually, those in favor of inequality are those on the right side of it)

I recommend reading: http://paulgraham.com/ineq.html

Inequality is the result of people earning different amounts, such being compensated in proportion to the value they generate - rather than everyone earning the same irrespective of that.

Inequality is the result of reaping the rewards of your own work: someone is more effective, so they earn more. Why is it bad? How can any market economy even function without it?

If an author writes a really good book, then it will sell and they'll make a lot of money. They earn a lot more than the author who writes bad, unpopular books. That's an example of income inequality.

A great comedian will draw large crowds and his shows will fetch a high price. That's an example of inequality too. What's wrong with that? How will anything work if it were otherwise?

Inequality is arguably not the right economic easure to care about for social issues. Imagine every human in year 7000 is rich enough to own entire planets, but the super wealthy own 100 planets. Who cares? Why is that a problem? If your concern is about a particular class, then you should look at their standard of living and progress in it over time, not compare against how much someone else has.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#119

Post by dnel »

hellofunk wrote: post #104
dnel wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I visited the US for the first time while on honeymoon and a couple of friends we visited while over there asked how I was handling doing work while away, it was an eye-opening insight into American culture I'd never witnessed before but it was a good opportunity to explain work-life balance from a European pov though, I didn't hear any counter-arguments from that small sample, maybe someday it'll catch on.

In Holland, everyone takes off 4 - 6 weeks in the summer to travel the world. This is so different than Americans: 1) In the U.S. you can work for years at a company before getting more than 1 or 2 weeks paid vacation. 2) Most Americans don't travel much outside their own state or region, let alone country. Most don't even own passports. 3) Even when not on the job, either at night, on the weekends, or on vacation, A…

That's the benefit of travel isn't it, these same friends we visited had come over to the UK 2 years prior for the first time and that experience adjusted a lot of their pre-concieved ideas about the British in a positive way.

If American's were enabled to take the time to see the world a bit more they would be less reliant on media stereotypes to understand it and might question their lot a bit more often but perhaps that's not in the interests of the people who run America.

Re: The Gig Economy Celebrates Working To Excess

#120

Post by rick_cheese »

thw1438383 wrote: post #97
seanhandley wrote: post #59

As a European (used to free healthcare, statutory maternity leave, and 25 days paid leave per year) it shocked me on first visiting America how third-world it actually feels regarding what people consider a "normal" work/life balance. People work incredibly hard, long hours and often with very little to show for it. It's surreal.

Atleast they get paid relatively more than in the EU. In Japan you're expected to work mad hours (read 11-12 hrs) for what is barely above minimum wage in the US! Add to that Tokyo is hecka expensive. I was quoted a salary of $ 30k for a deep learning position. Now that is third world.

Tokyo isn't all that expensive unless you're trying to live in luxury and a fair percentage of that 11-12 hrs would be spent appearing busy, CYA, napping or waiting for your boss to leave so you can go home. Speaking from experience the Japanese work ethic is as much about show as it is about actual hard work. It's a brutal culture behind a facade of politeness.
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