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Your yearly dose of is-the-universe-a-simulation

scottaaronson.com

191–200 of 285 posts

Re: Your yearly dose of is-the-universe-a-simulation

#191
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that your mind is not an isolatable computation - it is influenced by your body, which is in turn influenced by its immediate environment, in turn influenced by the rest of the universe in an ever expanding nested fashion. So if you want to simulate yourself, you have to simulate the universe.

well, the upper bound for the amount you'd have to simulate would be smaller than the universe, you'd only need to simulate a volume containing all particles that could causally affect you within the duration of the simulation, which would be limited by lightspeed. But I think, even then, you could simulate distant stuff at far lower resolution than near stuff, in a way that dropped off in expense very very quickly.…

You can go further than that. Depending on your goal, you only need to simulate enough that subject being simulated can not notice the difference. Everything else can be generated on demand.

E.g. consider the game Elite. It creates an - admittedly very simple - illusion of a persistent universe by using pseudo-random numbers to generate star systems.

It then populates those systems with ships whenever you visit one. But those ships only "exists" when you are in the system. Leave it and they disappear.

That's obviously too simple, but the point is that most of what you see you don't interact with more than superficially: For most of the ships you have no way of knowing (other than by looking at the code...) that if you turn around and fly back to the same systems, the simulations you run into are new rather than have just moved.

In general, you would be able to discontinue and discard most simulated objects after varying amounts of time. E.g. you may need to be able to regenerate a beach the subject has visited so that it looks the same, but only hours afterwards you can discard the sandcastle the subject built.

In fact, I'd argue that one of the problems with some open-world simulation games today is that they permanently retain state they shouldn't. E.g. if you chop down a tree in Minecraft and leave a stub, it will remain there forever. This is made worse, because the single player version and most servers will only simulate chunks where there are players - other chunks will be "in stasis", so if you quickly leave an area, states that even in-game should be brief and temporary gets frozen in time and restarted long after they should have changed if the player later comes back.

A "perfect" simulation will continue simulating any area "touched" by the "players", but over time gradually erase those state changes: Stubs rot, area overgrown etc.; buildings fall apart.

Over time you can let state left behind by a player converge on a generator function that lets the simulation eventually discard the state change entirely and fall back on just generating the area on demand.

Re: Your yearly dose of is-the-universe-a-simulation

#192
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So if you want to simulate yourself, you have to simulate the universe. This doesn't gel with me. I go back to brain in a jar stuff - I'm just streaming packets of data from nerves and processing them. Whether the "body" I'm responding to is real is pretty hard to guarentee.

There's evidence that your brain is influenced by e.g. certain chemicals in your bloodstream produced by gut bacteria. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/06/gut-bacte... So the brain in a jar model where the only interface with the real world is through nerves is most probably wrong; now your jar also needs a stomach with a fully developed microbial ecosystem. And that's just one recent mechanism that wa…

If you are a brain in a jar, then all that evidence is simulated.

Re: Your yearly dose of is-the-universe-a-simulation

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing to distinguish meddling from "that's just how the universe works. Time to update the Standard Model."

That doesn't seem right. If tomorrow the mass of your ashtray started fluctuating in Morse code, spelling out "hello from the simulation master" and replying to your questions intelligently, your first instinct wouldn't be to update the standard model.

To be more precise: The absence of ashtrays fluctuating in Morse code and spelling out messages or other clear signs of influence is not evidence of the absence of meddling.

We can not realistically know whether or not someone is meddling with a simulation we are in because there are infinite ways they could do so that would be indistinguishable to us from "just the way the universe is".

E.g. for what we know quantum mechanics is an artefact of ways of optimizing the simulation, for example.

But at the same time, there are clearly an infinite number of ways those running such simulations could make their existence quite obvious if that was the intent.

And frankly that is one of my biggest issues with the simulation argument. Let's call it the Fermi Paradox of the Simulation Agument: If we're in a simulation, where are the obvious signatures of these "simulation masters"?

Because if simulations of consciousness eventually becomes possible, I have a hard time of seeing how they'd not eventually become "cheap enough" with sufficient shortcuts that we'd be more likely to live in a far future version of The Sims than a serious scientific simulation.

And have you seen what people do to their Sims on Youtube?

If we are in a simulation, then I wonder why in the world things are not more messed up. Why hasn't some immature "simulation master" written their name across the night sky with giant fluorescent penises, for example. (Then again, maybe that's in the next simulation over)

Re: Your yearly dose of is-the-universe-a-simulation

#194
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have the Internet. If the parent commenter thought a more digestible summary or paraphrase of "the absolute of all conditionals" would have been helpful, they would have written it that way. If you're frustrated that it's opaque, and you care about understand the chance to do so is as near as googling "Kant absolute of all conditionals". If you don't care about understanding, why complain?

I spent about a minute looking at the results for "Kant absolute of all conditionals" on google, that phrase doesn't have any close hits, I think its fair to describe this phrase as non-trivial to understand just through googling, so I think your snark is unwarranted.

I spent a minute looking at the results of that phrase on ddg, and got a hit on the book in question. While it's not a direct quote, a search of the book finds this line:

> On the one hand: We set limits to reason, preventing it from leaving the guiding-thread of empirical conditions and straying into the transcendent and explaining things in terms that can’t be cashed out empirically. And also, on the other hand (this being my present point): We set limits to the law of the purely empirical use of the understanding, preventing it from making decisions about the possibility of things in general—i.e. of things of any sort—and ruling that intelligible things are not merely incapable of explaining appearances but are impossible.

I assume that's what OP meant.

Re: Your yearly dose of is-the-universe-a-simulation

#195
post #26

The statement "we live in a simulation" is not falsifiable. For me this question is simply not interesting.

I agree, it tickles my apatheist spot in the same way that talk of "God" does. Questions that are obviously not within the realm of human exploration are not interesting or compelling questions; the logical equivalent of "Is there a god?" or "What's North of the North Pole?"

Re: Your yearly dose of is-the-universe-a-simulation

#196
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might help on an existential level. + In the space of all possible universes it is unlikely that we live in the most probable one, but it is likely that we live in a probable one. + When I feel existentially lost, I'd like to think that if we look deep into math we will see the necessity of our universe's existence. + Our universe is a probable sequence hidden like primes within natural numbers. It exists forever,…

Indeed; the 'simulation universe' possibility I find (oddly I know!) comforting, and this has provided me with a way of understanding to some degree the comfort offered by religion to many people, while at the same time I still can't understand the religious aspect itself.

Just replace "Simulators" with "God", and you'll find that your beliefs are virtually indistinguishable from a religious conviction. In that light, the comfort it provides is by no means hard to understand.

Re: Your yearly dose of is-the-universe-a-simulation

#197
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many questions in life that are interesting to consider, independent of whether they're falsifiable. It tends to get boring to consider only questions that can be experimentally proven, though different people have different interests. Questions about society and human nature are worth considering, for example, but it's difficult to do controlled experiments. There's some truth to "watch out for wishful thi…

The part where "is this a simulation" becomes an uninteresting question is when you ask "Does it matter?". Would answering the question of whether we're in a simulation have any impact on your behavior, thoughts, and actions? Probably not. So what does it matter? My high school physics teacher once said that, if we ever find something that is outside the universe, then we will obviously be smart enough to call that t…

It matters because if we are in a simulation there could be a "magic ritual" that would cause those running the simulation to pay attention. There might even be hints. Those claiming to talk to God might be half right. Of course we wouldn't have a way of knowing the consequence of drawing their attention - it could be the equivalent of dumping bleach in the petri dish, or they could decide to let us out.

If we are in a simulation that is strictly following a set of basic natural laws and running it beginning to end without an exceptional influence, then you are right, it probably doesn't matter.

But if you are running in a simulation as part of a game where the entity running the simulation takes delight in messing around with it?

I agree in a sense that if we "escape the box" we'll just expand our idea of what reality is (and wonder if there's a box outside i), but that doesn't mean that the existence or absence of anything outside the box doesn't matter. It's just that we have to accept that it's not certain that we can ever know, and that we almost certainly can never know if we've found the outermost box or just haven't found a way out yet.

Re: Your yearly dose of is-the-universe-a-simulation

#198
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem right. If tomorrow the mass of your ashtray started fluctuating in Morse code, spelling out "hello from the simulation master" and replying to your questions intelligently, your first instinct wouldn't be to update the standard model.

To be more precise: The absence of ashtrays fluctuating in Morse code and spelling out messages or other clear signs of influence is not evidence of the absence of meddling. We can not realistically know whether or not someone is meddling with a simulation we are in because there are infinite ways they could do so that would be indistinguishable to us from "just the way the universe is". E.g. for what we know quantum…

We're probably a really boring part of the simulation. Like those pre-made Sims houses you never go to but occasionally call on the phone. Jesus Christ was that pizza party.

Re: Your yearly dose of is-the-universe-a-simulation

#199
post #146

Something that most people never consider in these discussions: If you accept the hypothesis that mind is generated by a computation, and that this computation is finite, then the same computation that produces "you" can be performed in different places and at different times. The same computation can be performed inside a simulation, inside a simulation inside a simulation and so on. Whatever environment around you…

> If the universe is infinite in some sense, this probability converges to 1. Limits that extend to infinity don't have to converge to 1.

His only unstated assumption to make it converge to 1 is that the odds of any given such compution being executed in any given volume of time and space must be positive. If it is, then no matter how low the probability is for any given location and time, given he postulated an infinite universe the probability will converge on 1.

Re: Your yearly dose of is-the-universe-a-simulation

#200

Immanuel Kant foresaw all this. In his seminal work "Critique of pure reason" he argues that our pure reason, as opposed to the pure mind, always tries to look for the absolute, the absolute of all conditionals. This leads our reason to look beyond empirically observable objects. Those objects that have their origin only in pure reason is what he calls "ideas". Those ideas can be separated into three categories, name…

Ideas can be proven true or false, but only in the context of other ideas which are assumed. That is what all of mathematics is based on. Of course, there is no objective truth or falsehood - the world doesn't even exist in a single objective state - and inductive inference is merely sufficient to provide estimates of probability.
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